|
Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
The_Prodiigy
Joined: 01 Apr 2006
Posts: 252
|
 Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 3:57 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
Cleopatra wrote
The fact of the matter is, by far the largest number of expats killed by "crazies" in KSA were killed in... compounds.
This is true.
They stand out and offer a huge target for any crazies that feel like targetting Westerners. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
trapezius
Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Land of Culture of Death & Destruction
|
| Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 8:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| The fact of the matter is, by far the largest number of expats killed by "crazies" in KSA were killed in... compounds. |
That's a very disingenuous comparison. That's like saying that if the world were destroyed tomorrow, China would have the most fatalities. O RLY?
99% of caucasians in SA live in some sort of gated community, so it is only statistically more likely that of all caucasians killed in SA, most have been from compounds.
And anyway, that was back in 2003, and since then, if you have noticed, it has become next to impossible to do it anymore. The compound walls are a good 5-10 meters from the walls of the boundary houses, and then the large concrete blocks out on the street (topped with barbed wire) are a further 5-10 meters from the compound wall, so ramming an explosive-laden vehicle into the blocks out on the street would do nothing. And the road leading to the guardhouse is manned by military police, and even if someone somehow went past them, the road is strewn with huge concrete blocks in a slalom fashion, making it impossible to drive fast and ram it into the guardhouse with the Filipinos inside.
| Quote: |
| Another problem with compounds is the immense hassle if anybody wants to visit you (particularly if they are Saudi). |
I am sure the guards at different compounds are of varying degree of friendliness, but here is what my friends who live in compounds have done: They have left a signed form at the guardhouse saying I can visit them at any time, without the guards having to call them to ask if I can come in. My friend might be at the pool, or in the gym, or even in the bathroom when I arrive, so this saves times and the hassle. I drop off my Iqama and walk in, without any hassle of any kind. Have even made friends with the Saudi guards outside!
| Quote: |
| I am caucasian, and I have a family. |
And that is exactly why it would be better to be in a compound, if you don't want your family to rot, that is. Your wife, your kids, can feely walk outside within the compound whenever they wish without worries of safety or people gawking at them. They can go to the pool, the store, the gym, whatever. Or take a walk at night around the compound, for fun, for exercise, for conversation.
In an apartment building, kids and women rot inside, as they can't just walk out in most places in Jeddah. As someone mentioned, muggings have increases in certain areas, and women, even when wearing an abaya, are always a target of horny teens in cars. (not abduction, just verbal harassment)
How nice would it be for your wife to take your kids outside in the late afternoon around the compound for a walk, or go sit at the pool, and when you come back from work, you directly come to the pool and have a nice time with your family?
In an apartment, either your are inside, or if outside, in a car (talking about families with kids here). And this mechanical lifestyle with rare access to nature or to physical exercise, leads to depression, laziness, obesity, and just being sick of life.
******************************************************
To each his own, but the fact of the matter is, compounds are far better for anybody's physical, mental, and emotional health, and these factors all contribute to it:
1) Clean inside, without rubbish (all Jeddah streets are liberally strewn with garbage) or overflowing raw sewage (as frequently happens to apartment buildings).
2) Lots of greenery, with the air being cleaner and cooler at night by up to a few degrees.
3) Availability of pools, a gym, and even billiards/ping pong. In the city, next to impossible, and only for men.
4) Nice large windows which let in sunlight all day long.
5) Free of noise pollution, which plagues the city. At night, in many parts of the city it is hard to sleep at night because of cars passing by, but a compound is eerily quiet at night.
6) For women and children, no worries if they walk out any time of the day or night, for whatever reason. And for women, having a store inside is also great (for men too), and the privilege to exercise, which is available to perhaps <2% of the women here. Kids can ride around in bikes (dangerous outside, with the cars around).
7) People on compounds hold barbecues regularly, which is a nice time to socialize and eat in a calm clean area in public. Impossible to do in the city, unless one lives in a house or in a villa.
8 ) Even accessibility to domestic help. There are several maids who visit compounds throughout the week, going around different houses for a few hours each. All you do is contact one of them, and fix the days and hours for her to come by just to provide a helping hand (great because out inthe city, this is hard, and most people keep full-time live-in maids). Sometimes, what my friends have done, is hire for a few hours a week, some of the live-in maids on compounds (of course with the permission of their "masters").
9) Heck, even the architecture, and the interior layout and floor tilings. Apartment buildings feel too industrial, and can lead to depression in susceptible individuals. Compound units have a nice functional layout, with warm colors and textures (of walls, tiles, etc), and definitely very warm and inviting furniture, with a lot of it solid wood. (which would cost a pretty penny if buying for an apartment outside)
10) And oh yeah, having a taxi service inside is very good, esp in emergencies, for women.
That's all I can think of now... I am sure I am missing some.
As I said, to each his own.
And I do understand that in this specific instance, the money is a limiting factor, as 17,000 is not adequate for a compound unit. However, 17,000 plus the 8,500 could make up a significant percentage, if he so desires. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
|
| Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 8:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
The fact of the matter is, by far the largest number of expats killed by "crazies" in KSA were killed in... compounds.
That's a very disingenuous comparison. |
Actually, it's not a 'comparison' at all.
| Quote: |
is only statistically more likely that of all caucasians killed in SA, most have been from compounds.
|
I did not say that the majority of those who were killed (whatever their skin colour) were from compounds, I said that they were killed ijn those compounds. This is indisputable. The compounds were directly targetted, for the very reason that they contain a large group of captive 'caucasians'.
| Quote: |
And anyway, that was back in 2003, and since then, if you have noticed, it has become next to impossible to do it anymore. |
Since then, if you have noticed it, very few expats have been killed in KSA, full stop. So, once again, you have used a lot of words to prove the point I had in fact previously made. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
|
| Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 9:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
2003 ?
The Oasis Massacre in Khobar was in 2004. More recently (2007) there was the murder of the French nationals who were driving to Mdain Saleh. Incidentally they were Muslims. A green Igama is not protection against the wrath of the loonies.
Recent arrests of crazies in Saudi indicate that this business is not yet over. Keep those tin hats on and stay within easy distance of your flak jackets ! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Van Norden
Joined: 23 Oct 2004
Posts: 409
|
| Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 10:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
Give me a compound any day. The bigger the better. I think the video link below amply demonstrates the benefits of living in a 'compound' even though it is an obvious target:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU8DDYz68kM |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
|
| Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 11:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| 99% of caucasians in SA live in some sort of gated community, so it is only statistically more likely that of all caucasians killed in SA, most have been from compounds. |
Nonsense, you're making the facts up. I have no idea what the figure for those living in compounds and campuses is, but would say it is somewhere between 50-75%.
| Quote: |
| And I do understand that in this specific instance, the money is a limiting factor, as 17,000 is not adequate for a compound unit. However, 17,000 plus the 8,500 could make up a significant percentage, if he so desires. |
Most compounds I have seen in the under SR30,000 price range bear an astonishing resemblance to the work camps that they put third world nationals in (in fact often the only difference is the number of people per unit). There are no doubt much better places, (the BAE compound in Riyadh where I used to play Bridge seemed OK, and the Aramco compound is a world of its own, but of course there are no EFL direct hires for Aramco any more), but they are way beyond even the UCJ housing allowance (three months salary or a maximum SR45,000 for married staff).
| Quote: |
| The compound walls are a good 5-10 meters from the walls of the boundary houses, and then the large concrete blocks out on the street (topped with barbed wire) are a further 5-10 meters from the compound wall, so ramming an explosive-laden vehicle into the blocks out on the street would do nothing. And the road leading to the guardhouse is manned by military police, and even if someone somehow went past them, the road is strewn with huge concrete blocks in a slalom fashion, making it impossible to drive fast and ram it into the guardhouse with the Filipinos inside. |
This is no doubt true if you work for a multi-national, that is scared stiff of being sued in the US and is charging the Saudi government a small fortune for 'essential' services. Most 'compounds' in the price range you are suggesting however are no more secure than a Pontins holiday camp (which the better ones bear a considerable resemblance to).
And you may not have noticed but people in compounds have to go to work. So the terrorists just wait a few yards outside the gates and pick you off then.
| Quote: |
| Since then, if you have noticed it, very few expats have been killed in KSA, full stop. |
Now here is where you need to do the kind of analysis that global nomad2 did about homicides and traffic accidents. Firstly the big year for terrorist attempts on expats was 2004, not 2003. Since 2004 to the best of my knowledge there have been eight or nine expats murdered by terrorists. That is out of an estimated western population of around 60,000, so the odds of getting murdered by terrorists are around the same as those of getting killed in a traffic accident, or murdered in the US; do note however that these are additional odds; being targetted because of your skin color doesn't mean your are not going to get run over by a Suburban. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The_Prodiigy
Joined: 01 Apr 2006
Posts: 252
|
| Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 11:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
That's amazing footage , Van!
TY for bringing it to attention. Well done, sir! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cmp45
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 1475
Location: KSA
|
| Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 12:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Thanks Van, Great video footage! and the suspense! Yikes! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
007
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
|
| Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 1:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Van Norden wrote: |
Give me a compound any day. The bigger the better. I think the video link below amply demonstrates the benefits of living in a 'compound' even though it is an obvious target:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU8DDYz68kM |
That�s �Life Survival� for animals, it seems the King Lion has lost his privilege as the King of Animals!! 
Poor little Baffalo, he was between the jaws of lions and crocodile, but it seems the Unity of his fellow Baffalos has rescued him from a death.
You see, Van, with Unity comes Freedom, that�s the conclusion of that footage!
So, respected ESL and math teachers, be united in your compound like Baffalos, so that the King Lion will not crash you between his jaws!!!
The world largest Baffalo in N. Dakota, land of uncle Sam! Enjoy
http://one.revver.com/watch/54189 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gonadicus
Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 10
|
| Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 11:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Trapezius, thanks for a rational and convincing account of the advantages of living in a compound. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bebsi
Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 958
|
| Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 7:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I don't subscribe to the "safer in a compound" viewpoint, but then, I don't subscribe to the "you're really in massive danger in KSA" viewpoint either. If I felt you were, I would simply advise not to go.
That being said, I absolutely go along with Trapezius and Van Norden that compound wins over non-compound hands down. Trap has basically covered it all. There are indeed some grotty compounds, but most of those are occupied by mainly TCNs. When choosing a compound, as in any other consumer transaction, you need to shop around a bit.
Off-compound, you would probably end up in a tiny, stifling apartment in a not-very-well maintained building (cockroaches in abundance), with small windows and frosted glass in all likelihood, not to mention independent i.e. noisy and ineffective AC units. This setup seems to be the norm for the lower-middle income sector in KSA. Luxury apartments in the nicer parts of town may be a lot better, but you would then end up paying as much as for a compound, but still without many of the benefits of the compound.
Go for compound, don't even think about any other options. Most of those who advocate otherwise probably count pennies rather than pounds!! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
|
| Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 8:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
I would suggest that Bebsi's knowledge of Saudi real estate prices is not on a par with his knowledge of those in Romania.
Large unfurnished apartments in good areas of Jeddah rent for between SR20,000 - SR30,000.
And then there is the fact that according to yesterday's Saudi Gazette
http://www.saudigazette.com.sa/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31389&Itemid=146 many compounds in Jeddah are refusing to rent to westerners because of the additional cost of the security, added to the fact that they lose Arab clients because they object to the razor wire and intrusive searches. According to the same Saudi Gazette article the additional security costs have meant 'an additional charge of SR50,000 per unit. How many teachers have sufficient housing allowance to pay a rent that will now be over SR100,000 annually?
As for size of housing units the average Saudi family apartment is bigger than most of the housing units on compounds I have seen, though the open space of the compound may well make up for that. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bebsi
Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 958
|
| Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 10:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Well, Stephen, Saudi real-estate aint my thing. Mind you, I considered buying in Dubai a few years ago...then went off it for a number of reasons...now very glad I didn't buy in there.
Anyway, I hadn't realised that compounds had become so expensive. Last time I lived in an urban compound in the kingdom was in 97, in Jeddah. That was in the good ol' days, before Sam the Lad got active and set his cohorts taking pot shots at people. As I said before, I don't subscribe to the fear and paranoia about security. I did a few years ago, and afterwards felt downright foolish.  However, the fear, whether justified or not, is real and that has certainly had a bearing on life for expats in KSA. 100k for a compound pad? I don't doubt it but dammit, I think an ordinary Saudi luxury pad out near Obhur (if living in Jeddah) suddenly appears like a most attractive option.
| Quote: |
| Large unfurnished apartments in good areas of Jeddah rent for between SR20,000 - SR30,000. |
I have a question here: if you can get a nice place for that sort of money, which again, I don't doubt, why are there so many people...EFL teachers at least...struggling to find places for about 10-15k? A few grand more and one's quality of life would go up massively?
OK, OK, the 300 Club perhaps?
Mind you, for those rents, I don't think I will be sending any clients to KSA for rental investments!! I will stick with Bucharest and Sibiu. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
|
| Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 11:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I don't know compound rentals; the apartment rental figures I take from the Saudi Gazette (paper edition because the archives of the online edition don't seem to work). Yesterday they had an article on Dammam rentals, going from SR8-10,000 in Thuqbah to SR25,000 to good quality 3 bedroom apartments in Khobar. Students have told me that the cost of apartments to share in Khobar is around SR20,000 so those figures seem about right.
There's a lot of space in Saudi, so that when there is a shortage of housing people build, and then the price collapses, and slowly recovers. There were vast changes in rents in Riyadh in the 80s-90s (a friend told me his rent went from SR4,000 to SR,16,000 and then back down to SR4,000 for the same apartment, before rents gradually rose up to the SR10,000 - SR16,000 for decent middle-class three bedroom flats. They are probably somewhat higher now.
I don't know compound prices that well; the figures the SG gives seem high, but newspaper ads seem to be for rents from SR35,000 -SR70,000. I suspect that there is not really a stable market as when companies leave slack the compound management will rent out for what it can get.
The basic trouble with apartments is that you need to buy everything, including normally carpets and A/Cs, though you normally the kitchen sink. One result is that EFL teachers will often rent a cheaper apartment than what they can afford because they have to put so much of the rent allowance towards furniture. And when the furniture is paid for they can't be bothered to move, and have become acclimatized to living cheaply.
The original poster was talking about an allowance of SR17,000 + SR8,500 furniture allowance. I doubt if he would get a great compound, or indeed a great anything, for that price in Jeddah. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
