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furiousmilksheikali
Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 1660
Location: In a coffee shop, splitting a 30,000 yen tab with Sekiguchi.
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 Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| I think you should do Thai Studies if you want but I don't know why you're clouding the issue by introducing it to the discussion. |
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hentaigaijin
Joined: 05 Oct 2006
Posts: 104
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| furiousmilksheikali wrote: |
| I think you should do Thai Studies if you want but I don't know why you're clouding the issue by introducing it to the discussion. |
simply because no-one in their right mind would actually choose to do the masters in tesol in thailand as opposed to elsewhere but thai studies in thailand makes sense. i would also prefer thai studies as a subject.
however, you are right. let's ignore the question of thai studies and just stick to discussing the merits or otherwise of the med tefl in the context of the japan teaching-game. |
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Crab
Joined: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 40
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Interviewee: I went to the 161st best university in the world. I would like a job.
Interviewer: え...? (said with a rising voice, softly but in an inquisitive manner...)
Interviewee: (whips out a printout from the website) #161!
Interviewer: Khao San Road ですね。。。わかった！ |
Canuck, this statement makes it painfully clear that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about and should not be giving advice on this topic.
I work for one of the "THES Top 200" universities in Canada. One of my duties is to negotiate exchange agreements with other top universities around the world. And yes, we have an agreement with Chulalongkorn - our only partner in Thailand. In fact, I'll be meeting with them, along with many of our other partners, at the annual NAFSA conference in Minneapolis next week (google "NAFSA 2007" if you don't know what I'm talking about. Especially you, Canuck!).
Rankings aside (and the THES rankings in particular have been heavily criticized), Chula is recognized, along with universities like Todai, Waseda, Keio, Nanyang, Hong Kong, Fudan, etc., as one of the top universities in Asia.
Until the travel advisory went into effect last December, we sent students from our Commerce program to Chula e every year. The students were always very happy with the decision to study there and the experience has been viewed positively by employers.
To the OP, you would not be doing yourself any disservice whatsoever by getting a degree from Chula, if your goal is to work in Japan. Any Japanese university worth its salt will know it is a very good school. You might also be interested to know that many top Japanese universities (Waseda and Keio to name two) also have exchange agreements and other forms of collaboration (e.g. research projects, faculty exchange, etc.) with Chula.
Go get the degree, if it's what you want to do.
Cheers,
Crab |
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door3344
Joined: 26 Apr 2007
Posts: 18
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Crab wrote: |
Canuck, this statement makes it painfully clear that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about and should not be giving advice on this topic.
I work for one of the "THES Top 200" universities in Canada. One of my duties is to negotiate exchange agreements with other top universities around the world. And yes, we have an agreement with Chulalongkorn - our only partner in Thailand. In fact, I'll be meeting with them, along with many of our other partners, at the annual NAFSA conference in Minneapolis next week (google "NAFSA 2007" if you don't know what I'm talking about. Especially you, Canuck!).
Rankings aside (and the THES rankings in particular have been heavily criticized), Chula is recognized, along with universities like Todai, Waseda, Keio, Nanyang, Hong Kong, Fudan, etc., as one of the top universities in Asia.
Until the travel advisory went into effect last December, we sent students from our Commerce program to Chula e every year. The students were always very happy with the decision to study there and the experience has been viewed positively by employers.
To the OP, you would not be doing yourself any disservice whatsoever by getting a degree from Chula, if your goal is to work in Japan. Any Japanese university worth its salt will know it is a very good school. You might also be interested to know that many top Japanese universities (Waseda and Keio to name two) also have exchange agreements and other forms of collaboration (e.g. research projects, faculty exchange, etc.) with Chula.
Go get the degree, if it's what you want to do.
Cheers,
Crab |
That's rare, somebody on this forum who actually knows what they're talking about. |
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furiousmilksheikali
Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 1660
Location: In a coffee shop, splitting a 30,000 yen tab with Sekiguchi.
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Crab wrote: |
To the OP, you would not be doing yourself any disservice whatsoever by getting a degree from Chula, if your goal is to work in Japan. Any Japanese university worth its salt will know it is a very good school. You might also be interested to know that many top Japanese universities (Waseda and Keio to name two) also have exchange agreements and other forms of collaboration (e.g. research projects, faculty exchange, etc.) with Chula.
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Then mentioning the university's name is clearly preferable to telling the university you are applying to that Chula is ranked 161 in the world . Hentaigaijin seems to be overly concerned about stating his case to the university using Chula's ranking to get over the fact it is in Thailand. It sounds defensive from the beginning which is more likely to put interviewers on edge. |
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hentaigaijin
Joined: 05 Oct 2006
Posts: 104
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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go thailand, go thailand, go.
Hentaigaijin seems to be overly concerned about stating his case to the university using Chula's ranking to get over the fact it is in Thailand. It sounds defensive from the beginning which is more likely to put interviewers on edge.
yeah, that was my nob of a mate's fault, overstating the case. he is a bit of a snob (furry muff) coz he did degrees at top schools like ucl, lse, sorbonne and whatnot.
i'm glad i asked, i feel better now. a chula degree is ok by me.
but what about thai studies or tefl? would an ma thai studies + being registered for doctorate get me a job? maybe the univ. can hook me up. i'll do tefl degree if i have to (might enjoy it) but thai studies seems more cultured somehow. i do know the people at the faculty of education tho coz i worked for them so it might help me cement working relationships for the future.
decisions, decisions. |
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hentaigaijin
Joined: 05 Oct 2006
Posts: 104
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| furiousmilksheikali wrote: |
| Hentaigaijin seems to be overly concerned about stating his case to the university using Chula's ranking to get over the fact it is in Thailand. |
and also because thai universities are a joke and i have seen that they are a joke but chula is the exception.
i once set my students an essay on "the importance of ethics". after two warnings, i eventually had to fail 15 out of 52 for blatant plagiarism. that wasn't chula though. |
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taikibansei
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 811
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Crab wrote: |
| To the OP, you would not be doing yourself any disservice whatsoever by getting a degree from Chula, if your goal is to work in Japan. |
 This is, quite frankly, horrible advice. And not because of any problems with the quality and/or overall ranking of Chula--I'm sure it's a fine school, and a graduate degree taken, say, in the Thai language would be respected. However, the reaction overseas to an English (or Japanese) native speaker majoring in TESOL/Japanese at a Thai University would be contempt.
The perceptions working against you are these: if the graduate classes are taught in just English/Japanese, then they are necessarily dumbed down to accommodate all the non native speakers (Thai citizens, all) in the classroom; if the classes are taught in Thai, then how much did the non Thai really understand, and (in the case of Japanese) how rigorous could the program really be? Finally, you'd deal with this question: why would a non Thai lacking native-level skills in the language want to take TESOL and/or Japanese in Thailand, when they'd have access at home to equivalent (at least) quality courses taught in their native languages?
I'm sure Hentaigaijin and others will now argue back that these perceptions are unfair, the question inappropriate. Fine. Keep in mind, though, how competitive full-time university positions are in Japan and most western countries. I've been on search committees in seven universities so far: three in Japan, and four in the States. E.g., we just completed a search recently in Japan which saw over 100 applicants with at least the Masters in TESOL--the two English native speakers who took their degrees in Thailand were weeded out immediately. Why should we bother with them (and address our concerns/prejudices) when we have 98+ other qualified applicants for one position?
My two yen. |
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Sherri
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 749
Location: The Big Island, Hawaii
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 12:53 am Post subject: |
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Hi Crab
Maybe I will see you at NAFSA. I will be there too--Study Hawaii Booth.
Flying out soon, have a good flight yourself.
Sherri |
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Crab
Joined: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 40
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 1:11 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Crab wrote:
To the OP, you would not be doing yourself any disservice whatsoever by getting a degree from Chula, if your goal is to work in Japan.
Takibansei wrote:
Shocked This is, quite frankly, horrible advice. And not because of any problems with the quality and/or overall ranking of Chula--I'm sure it's a fine school, and a graduate degree taken, say, in the Thai language would be respected. However, the reaction overseas to an English (or Japanese) native speaker majoring in TESOL/Japanese at a Thai University would be contempt.
The perceptions working against you are these: if the graduate classes are taught in just English/Japanese, then they are necessarily dumbed down to accommodate all the non native speakers (Thai citizens, all) in the classroom; if the classes are taught in Thai, then how much did the non Thai really understand, and (in the case of Japanese) how rigorous could the program really be? |
Interesting perspective and I can (sort of) see where you are coming from. You are probably right that this happens, but I can't help but wonder where you work. Were they Chula apps that your search committee immediately dismissed? If so, it is much more a reflection of the quality of the Japanese institution for whom you work than it is the quality of the Chula degree. Or, if you work at a top tier, internationally recognized J. school (and I am willing to bet my (dog's) left nut it is not), you should be ashamed of yourselves for not doing your homework. Some search committee!
I can also assure you that the reaction "overseas" (a very big place indeed) to an English native speaker studying TESOL or Japanese at a Thai university would not be contempt. This is a ridiculously simplistic and downright silly comment. Clearly, it was met with contempt by you and your search committee (I would argue a very small and backward proportion of overseas), but this only proves you were acting out of total ignorance.
First, we are not talking about any Thai university; we are talking about the best Thai university with a world-class reputation. Would you meet with similar contempt, if the native English speaker took Japanese Studies at Oxford or an African language at SOAS? I doubt it.
I would also say that the whole "dumbed down" curricula argument cannot be made for grad programs from top tier universities. If they tried this, they would no longer be in this category. Not to mention that internal committees (academic review, curriculum) would very quickly shut down any program that started down this slippery slope.
Let me explain.
Many less reputable universities, particularly those in Australia - though certainly a handful in Canada and the US as well - have been accused of dumbing down curricula and lowering standards over the past 10-15 years in order to attract more international student fees. They are all paying for it now through loss of faculty and decreasing enrolment of both domestic and international students.
However, by Takibansei's logic, you would have to question the quality of any graduate program offered at any good university in the world as they all attract a large number of NNES students. For example, roughly 20% of the graduate students at my university fall into this category. However, no one goes around wondering how much they "really understand" or questions the "rigors" of the program. It is expected that the students are of sufficient quality to deal with the demands of the program. If they can't, they fail.
What about all of the NNESs studing at Harvard, Oxford and Australia National University or any other world class university? They are top tier because they attract excellent students from around the world and provide them with an excellent education.
| Quote: |
| Finally, you'd deal with this question: why would a non Thai lacking native-level skills in the language want to take TESOL and/or Japanese in Thailand, when they'd have access at home to equivalent (at least) quality courses taught in their native languages? |
Probably because, like most world-class universities in NNES countries, they are offering more and more content courses in English. That said, I know nothing about the TESOL program at Chula but I'll bet (my dog's) other nut that the course is in English.
To the OP, I still say get the degree if you like but give Takibansei's school a very wide berth.
Thanks for listening. I need a drink.
P.S. Sherry, I'll drop by your booth.
Crab |
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taikibansei
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 811
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 3:10 am Post subject: |
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Chula and Oxford in the same sentence?  Yeah, that analogy works...thanks for that!
Tell me, Crab, as "the director of a School of English at a small Canadian university," how many native speakers of English have you hired for full-time faculty positions who got their graduate qualifications in Thailand? (Feel free to round up....  ) In fact, with 40-120 applications on average for each position in TESOL and/or English, with even a small Canadian university pretty much guaranteed applicants from the top universities in several countries, an English native speaker with this background would be at a severe disadvantage. Impossible? No, but you'd better have much better publications and work experience than everyone else.
Crab, I've worked at a private liberal arts university in the US for five years, a US R-1 public university for three years, an R-2 public U.S. for two years, a Japanese National University for six years, a Japanese prefectural university for four years, and a private Japanese university for one year now. At these institutions, I've been regular faculty, an academic supervisor in charge of an ESL program, an English department head, and a dean. At these places and in those majors, the application would not have been taken seriously.
However, don't just take my word for it. The better forum for these types of questions is the one at the Chronicle.
http://chronicle.com/forums/
Ask there how much weight a TESOL or Japanese language MA taken in Thailand would carry in Canada, England, Australia, or the US. That should be fun.... |
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Crab
Joined: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 40
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 4:48 am Post subject: |
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Takibansei, when I was in that position, I hired none. Would I have considered it? Yes.
In my defence, I will say that you seem to know very little about Chula and dismiss it out of hand. Fair enough. I have no attachment ot the place. I would encourage you, however, to do a bit more research in separating good universities from bad ones. You could be missing out on an excellent candidate down the road.
At the end of the day we can agree to disagree. Let me say that I always enjoy reading your posts and the odd exchange that we have on here from time to time.
The OP has 2 opinions now. He can decide what's best for him.
Cheers,
Matt |
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canuck
Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 1921
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 4:55 am Post subject: |
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| Crab wrote: |
I work for one of the "THES Top 200" universities in Canada. One of my duties is to negotiate exchange agreements with other top universities around the world. And yes, we have an agreement with Chulalongkorn - our only partner in Thailand. In fact, I'll be meeting with them, along with many of our other partners, at the annual NAFSA conference in Minneapolis next week (google "NAFSA 2007" if you don't know what I'm talking about. Especially you, Canuck!).
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| taikibansei wrote: |
Tell me, Crab, as "the director of a School of English at a small Canadian university," how many native speakers of English have you hired for full-time faculty positions who got their graduate qualifications in Thailand? (Feel free to round up.... ) In fact, with 40-120 applications on average for each position in TESOL and/or English, with even a small Canadian university pretty much guaranteed applicants from the top universities in several countries, an English native speaker with this background would be at a severe disadvantage. Impossible? No, but you'd better have much better publications and work experience than everyone else.
Crab, I've worked at a private liberal arts university in the US for five years, a US R-1 public university for three years, an R-2 public U.S. for two years, a Japanese National University for six years, a Japanese prefectural university for four years, and a private Japanese university for one year now. At these institutions, I've been regular faculty, an academic supervisor in charge of an ESL program, an English department head, and a dean. At these places and in those majors, the application would not have been taken seriously.
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Interesting p*ssing contest, with a clear winner.
| Crab wrote: |
Or, if you work at a top tier, internationally recognized J. school (and I am willing to bet my (dog's) left nut it is not), you should be ashamed of yourselves for not doing your homework. Some search committee!
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taikibansei, are your plans to import said left nut or will you try and sell it on ebay? |
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taikibansei
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 811
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 5:05 am Post subject: |
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| taikibansei wrote: |
| Chula and Oxford in the same sentence? Yeah, that analogy works...thanks for that! |
Just to clarify what I meant here, Chula is currently ranked 161 in the world--not bad considering the total number of universities out there. Oxford, however, placed first in the Times guide. Furthermore, Oxford's Japanese program is rated one of the best in the world--and has been for a number of years now. For all Chula's comparative strengths, TESOL and Japanese are not counted among them. Hence, comparing the two is sheer madness.
Still, Crab, keep telling people a TESOL/Applied Linguistics degree taken at Chula is the same as one taken at Cambridge or at Brown (we got submissions from all three last round, by the way). Your continued efforts in this will make it easier for search committees everywhere, so thank you in advance.
However, for anyone seriously thinking about teaching full-time at a university in Japan, England, Canada, Australia, and the US, think twice about getting your TESOL or Japanese degree at a place like Chula. You'll be competing against tens to hundreds of people with degrees from better ranked universities in the field. Why handicap yourself, especially when many decent programs now offer online courses? |
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taikibansei
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 811
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 5:12 am Post subject: |
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| Crab wrote: |
| Takibansei, when I was in that position, I hired none. Would I have considered it? Yes. |
Of course one would "consider" it! However, with 100 other applicants in front of you, how long would you spend on it? Since you hired "none," I think we have our answer.
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| In my defence, I will say that you seem to know very little about Chula and dismiss it out of hand. |
Actually, I did say it is a good school. Indeed, my initial--and subsequent--points had little to do with its quality. |
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