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jc1977
Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 29
Location: Nerima
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 Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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Japan apologists? On this site? Oh, say it ain't so.
Racism abounds in every country. Stop slamming places you personally don't like and come to grips with the fact that people hate people anywhere you go. The difference is that in Japan, it seems to be OK, unspoken and unchecked. |
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markle
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Posts: 1316
Location: Out of Japan
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| gaijinalways wrote: |
| look at Japan's law on discrimination, basically they don't have any. That is what makes right-wing nuts here more dangerous. |
I am really beginning to have doubts about the prudence of an unending faith in laws and legislation as a way of dealing with social problems. |
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kdynamic
Joined: 05 Nov 2005
Posts: 562
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| jc1977 wrote: |
| The difference is that in Japan, it seems to be OK, unspoken and unchecked. |
The difference in Japan is that it's not illegal. Look at labor practices in regard to foreign workers. Try being Brazilian or Chinese in Japan.... Not easy. |
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AndyH
Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 417
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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I probably had more close friends who were Chinese, than any other ethnicity, in Japan. I had a few Korean friends too, as well as Black friends, and heard few, if any complaints from them.
As for me, as a white American, I was treated better in Japan than I was in Korea or the Middle East. |
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JimDunlop2
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 2286
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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Just because it isn't as overt and in-your-face in Japan as in other countries doesn't mean it's not worse. And just because people don't complain doesn't mean it's not a problem.
I dare any Japan apologist to take Debito on head-to-head. Go ahead -- send him an e-mail... Tell him what a wonderful paradise Japan is... Especially those of you who don't live here. www.debito.org Maybe if a few people actually did, a few eyes would get opened.
I'm also sick to death of all the people who respond with, "Yeah, well look at <country x> or <country y> -- they're racist too!" You know what? I don't care! I'm sure they ARE racist there too... But I don't live in those countries -- and that's no excuse or justification for racism in THIS country. This has also been Japan's lame-assed defense for their actions. They point their fingers at other countries and say, "They do it too." This isn't a school playground and we're not 5 years old. I may not be able to fix the world -- but I will try to fix my little corner of it. |
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Leon30
Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 60
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 12:50 am Post subject: Re: Japanese Nationalism and Racism |
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| Sour Grape wrote: |
| hentaigaijin wrote: |
| just how racist are the japanese? |
Compared to the US, UK, Aus, Canada and New Zealand? Individually. I'd say the difference is negligeable. The problem is that if you are discriminated against here because you are not Japanese, there is almost no legislation for you to do anything about it.
But you are correct in that the lack of condemnation of the views of Ishihara is a disgrace. |
One thing I would have to mention is that an immigrant or expat in the countries above will find (in my opinion and limited experience) that they will fit in easilly enough after a while and be invited into people's homes and after time (if they learn the language) be accepted as a friend or lover or spouse and not be treated differently from anyone else - by the genral population (exluding groups such as the bnp etc)
However - and it was Japanese friends who told me this - you can have lived in Japan as long as you like and have learned the language perfectly and observe the customs. Japanese people will think you are strange for doing so and you will always continue to be treated as an outsider, whether you have kids and a spouse.
Don't get me wrong, your Japanese spouse and her familly might well accept you and a few more wordly / travelled / liberal friends.
But not the society on the whole. Same goes for Korea and China and as far as I'm aware - most Asian countries.
Anyway, I'm no expert on Japan and the opinions expressed in this post are truly open for correction and discussion.
Like I said, it was a Japanese friend who first told me this.
And I know from experience, once you have a valid visa, can speak the lingo and are generally a decent person you will be completely accepted (barring fringe elements such as radical right-wing groups) in the Western countries mentioned.
I'm not trying to start a 'we're better than them' thread. I know the western countries situation is due to colonialisation - we invited it - and a much longer history of immigration. We must remember that the USA only outlawed racial discrimination (segregation) 60 years ago. |
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southofreality
Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 579
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 2:01 am Post subject: Re: Japanese Nationalism and Racism |
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| Leon30 wrote: |
However - and it was Japanese friends who told me this - you can have lived in Japan as long as you like and have learned the language perfectly and observe the customs. Japanese people will think you are strange for doing so and you will always continue to be treated as an outsider, whether you have kids and a spouse.
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Yes. That's been said often, and there's quite a bit of truth here. However, I don't know about anyone else, but no matter where I've lived, I've always been able to count my very good friends on the fingers of one hand. I don't worry too much about being accepted by everybody; I worry more about cultivating relationships that are meaningful to me. If you think about it, Japanese people accept who they are, generally speaking, so why not accept who you are? Live as well as you can here if you truly like the place. Be a crusader if you want to see change, but don't let this place break your heart. There's more to life than just Japan. |
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TokyoLiz
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1548
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 2:21 am Post subject: |
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Jim Dunlop said
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| I'm sure they ARE racist there too... But I don't live in those countries -- and that's no excuse or justification for racism in THIS country. |
Yes, we live here. No, it is not an immigrant country. And no, no, no there is no excuse for racism regardless of the lack of a national policy to discourage racism. Racism is a totally nonsensical problem in a world in which globalism, international law, and the need to look beyond national interests and look at humanity rather than race as the backbone of who we are.
I admire you for wanting to change things in your own little corner. All power to you. There are Japanese people who will support you as a person, as a foreigner and as a permanent fixture in the society. There will be many who can't see beyond fear of other.
That sooooo sucks. For everybody, including them. Everybody loses when people are afraid. |
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japanman
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 281
Location: England
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 2:32 am Post subject: |
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The idea though of a Japanese society being a coherent whole is a total myth though. It is comprised of many many smal groups that all blend together into the whole. Each group (uchi, 内) has little ｌｉｔｔｌｅ ｏｒ
ｎｏ ｃｏｎｎｅｃｔｉｏｎ ｗｉｔｈ ｏｔｈｅｒ ｇｒｏｕｐｓ， ｓｏ ｏｎｃｅ ｙｏｕ ｂｅｃｏｍｅ ｆｕｌｌｙ ａｃｃｅｐｔｅｄ ｉｎｔｏ ｏｎｅ Ｊａｐａｎｅｓｅ ｇｒｏｕｐ ｏｆ ｐｅｏｐｌｅ， ｙｏｕ ａｒｅ ｐｒｅｔｔｙ ｍｕｃｈ ａ ｐａｒｔ ｏｆ ｔｈｅ ｗｈｏｌｅ ｗｉｔｈｏｕｔ ｅｖｅｎ ｒｅａｌｉｓｉｎｇ ｉｔ．
Ｔｈａｔ�ｓ ｔｈｅ ｗａｙ ｔｒｙ ａｎｄ ｔｈｉｎｋ ａｂｏｕｔ ｉｔ ｔｏ ｄｅａｌ ｗｉｔｈ ｉｔ ａｎｙｗａｙ． |
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Nismo
Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 520
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 2:35 am Post subject: |
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| JimDunlop2 wrote: |
| I may not be able to fix the world -- but I will try to fix my little corner of it. |
It's a noble effort, but don't lose spirit when there is no major, immediate change. Debito seems to be devoting his life to it, but what has really changed?
It's not outsiders that will change things on the inside. Japanese have to come to terms with this subject on their own, and then there will be a noticeable change. Otherwise, it's about as useful as a U.S. led occupation in the Middle East - You may change the hearts of a few, but you're probably going to piss off a lot more people trying to get them to do things your way. |
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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 3:32 am Post subject: |
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| I'm not sure if Japan is quickly going to come to terms with it on its own. Japan always seems to respond better to foreign than domestic pressure, because they can later attribute blame for necessary and painful changes to outside their 'own little' world and then also take credit for any postive changes they bring about by responding to the said foreign pressure. |
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jademonkey
Joined: 30 Mar 2007
Posts: 180
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 5:10 am Post subject: |
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| JimDunlop2 wrote: |
| Just because it isn't as overt and in-your-face in Japan as in other countries doesn't mean it's not worse. And just because people don't complain doesn't mean it's not a problem. |
Frankly, subtle racism IS better (or more appropriately, not as vile). Would you rather be ignored or have the crap beaten out of you and left for dead? So from that point of view, yes overt racism is much worse.
| Quote: |
| I dare any Japan apologist to take Debito on head-to-head. Go ahead -- send him an e-mail... Tell him what a wonderful paradise Japan is... Especially those of you who don't live here. www.debito.org Maybe if a few people actually did, a few eyes would get opened. |
A WHITE MAN is discriminated against! That's terrible! Japanese are all racist barbarians! I did actually read some of his book, and yes he was discriminated against (esp. because he's a Japanese citizen) but that happens in every country, every day. Why is a white man being discriminated against so noticable? Because he's white and we're the ones that are usually discriminating against others?
| Quote: |
| I'm also sick to death of all the people who respond with, "Yeah, well look at <country x> or <country y> -- they're racist too!" You know what? I don't care! I'm sure they ARE racist there too... But I don't live in those countries -- and that's no excuse or justification for racism in THIS country. This has also been Japan's lame-assed defense for their actions. They point their fingers at other countries and say, "They do it too." This isn't a school playground and we're not 5 years old. I may not be able to fix the world -- but I will try to fix my little corner of it. |
And I'm sick of people pointing out the bloody obvious- that there are racists in Japan. Is this surprising? A monocultural country with a history of exclusionism isn't very liberal when it comes to race? I'll tell you straight up- EVERY country that a white person is likely to come from is either just as or more racist than Japan, so what's the big deal? Because *you're* the victim?
Racism is vile everywhere and in Japan it's no exception. The only difference is, it's you who are the victim in this case. |
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JimDunlop2
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 2286
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 5:29 am Post subject: |
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First of all, getting the crap beaten out of you is not necessary in order for racism to be overt... Beatings and lynchings just happen to be extreme examples of the above...
| jademonkey wrote: |
A WHITE MAN is discriminated against! That's terrible! Japanese are all racist barbarians! |
Based on your sarcasm here, I can't help but conclude that somehow you feel that a WHITE MAN deserves to be discriminated against... Somehow, because the WHITE MAN perpetuated racism for so many years, he's getting his just deserts based on your "just world hypothesis" right?
If you're going to go down that road then just head on over to the other thread where people feel that they are entitled to steal from their employers because their employers stole from them. Otherwise, let's not sit here trying to play "my racism is worse than your racism" and "this victim is better off than that victim" head games.
If that's not what you're getting at, instead of getting angry at those who are pointing out the obvious -- (that there are racists in Japan), why don't you try getting angry at those racists and confront them with what you yourself decribe as vile? What's more, it may be obvious to us -- but there are plenty of people, Japanese or otherwise, to whom it's NOT obvious. There are still plenty of people walking around with their heads stuck firmly in... well... the sand... who deny that racism is even a problem! Off the top of my head I can name at least 3 or 4 Japanese people AND ex-pats living in Japan who like to think that they live in the land of the gods and a magical place whose citizens can do no wrong. Hard to believe, yes, but swing by some time and I'll introduce you to them. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 5:41 am Post subject: |
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| Debito seems to be devoting his life to it, but what has really changed? |
Perhaps you should ask him that instead of whistling such comments into the thin air? There have been SOME changes. Some would say minor, but can you expect miracles or huge changes from just one person? (In rare cases, yes.)
Examples:
Some businesses that discriminate against foreign customers have stopped doing that.
The "gaijin crime" magazine is off the shelves.
The United Nations representative works with Debito to fight discrimination. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 5:46 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Frankly, subtle racism IS better (or more appropriately, not as vile). Would you rather be ignored or have the crap beaten out of you and left for dead? So from that point of view, yes overt racism is much worse. |
Potentially more violent, yes, but worse? Do you have any inkling as to what sort of hidden discrimination exists against foreign workers? Pretty heavy stuff in some cases. And, trying to fight an invisible, intangible enemy can be pretty frustrating. Worse? Depends on one's point of view, I guess.
| Quote: |
| A WHITE MAN is discriminated against! That's terrible! Japanese are all racist barbarians! I did actually read some of his book, and yes he was discriminated against (esp. because he's a Japanese citizen) but that happens in every country, every day. Why is a white man being discriminated against so noticable? Because he's white and we're the ones that are usually discriminating against others? |
He may be white, but his fight against discrimination is not limited to whites. I find it hard to believe that you don't see that. |
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