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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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 Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:10 am Post subject: |
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| the title English teacher |
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007
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:20 am Post subject: |
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| Cleopatra wrote: |
| A few weeks ago I was in the supermarket where - shock horror - there was no bag packer on that particular till. So the three female Saudi shoppers just stood and watched as their shopping piled up on the belt. Doing it themselves just simply was not an option, even assuming that the thought had occurred to them, which it almost certainly had not. |
So, Cleo, was it an option for you to do the bag packing? Or may be you thought about it, but you got that �psychological� feeling of �Oh I cannot do it, it is shameful in front of Saudi women!�
Or may be you had the courage and did it, because you always volunteered to do it by yourself!  as you pretended in other ocasions ....
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| I always volunteer to go myself, I know where I found the item, unlike the poor bag packer who can't be expected to know.. |
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shadowfax
Joined: 31 May 2003
Posts: 212
Location: Pocket Universe 935500921223097532957092196
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:24 am Post subject: |
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| I trust you are stipulating a comma after title? Most of the examples of this syntactic structure in the OED don't have one. I think at best this could be charitably interpreted as a piece of rusty schoolmam pedantry. |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:25 am Post subject: |
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So, Cleo, was it an option for you to do the bag packing? Or may be you thought about it, but you got that �psychological� feeling of �Oh I cannot do it, it is shameful in front of Saudi women!� |
Abba,
Do yourself a favour and get a few English reading comprehension lessons. If you're in Riyadh, I can recommend a few good male teachers.
After you've done that, come back to us.
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| I trust you are stipulating a comma after title? |
No, but thanks for letting us all know that a nerve has well and truly been touched here. Also, while I may be wrong, I can't help suspecting you're a non-native speaker in over-compensation mode.
Last edited by Cleopatra on Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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007
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:28 am Post subject: |
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| Cleopatra wrote: |
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So, Cleo, was it an option for you to do the bag packing? Or may be you thought about it, but you got that �psychological� feeling of �Oh I cannot do it, it is shameful in front of Saudi women!� |
Abba,
Do yourself a favour and get a few English reading comprehension lessons. If you're in Riyadh, I can recommend a few good male teachers.
After you've done that, come back to us. |
No thank you, I have my very good female teacher.
Cleo, I recommend, what shadowfax recommended ....
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| To have a true taste for punctuation you really should read one or two od Anne Radcliffe's novels. I could recommend the Italian , otherwise known as The Black Penitentials... |
Last edited by 007 on Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:25 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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shadowfax
Joined: 31 May 2003
Posts: 212
Location: Pocket Universe 935500921223097532957092196
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:34 am Post subject: |
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To conclude with a comment on the main theme, Cleopatra has a point.
However, we should learn to distinguish between the comfortable women who rejoice in their capacity of feed baby-making machines, and the poor of very low intellect, who are locked under the dark shroud of a barbaric cultural engineering to which the former pampered ones have contributed. Still, one should never criticise anything in the east without casting an equal eye on the west. There shall ye see untrammelled strumpetry begetting offspring of villainy. |
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Bebsi
Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 958
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Compound Cathy near you. |
Never heard that expression before, but yes, it says a lot, I like it. Eloquent in its simplicity.
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| the once great but now lousy Observer |
Hear, hear!! I agree, the Observer has gone from great to grate.
We all know that many Saudi women do not want to work, for reasons that are cultural rather than having anything to do with religion. Like the Compound Cathys, they want to sit at home all day, just like many women.....and men...all over the world. What distinguishes them is not their desire to do so, but the fact that with the new (in relative terms) oil wealth, they can afford to do so, again just like the Compound Cathys!!
Times are now a changin' in sunny Araby, and economic reality is starting to rear its ugly head. As urban Saudi Arabia moves closer to the nuclear family model, whereby more young married couples want their own homes, and the retail mortgage lending sector expands, it is increasingly a fact of life that the one-bread-earner family will have a greater financial challenge. In a nutshell, more and more women will have to work to pay the mortgage.
In my native Ireland, most married women work. They have to, to pay the mortgage in a high-housing-cost economy. Twenty years ago, a substantial minority of married women worked, the majority were stay-at-home housewives. My own mother, always a career woman, was regarded as an oddity (in a good natured way) by many in her own community.
The same is happening in Saudi Arabia. However, given the complex nature of the society, it is not such an easy step for women to take. Saudis are, as anyone who has spent even a modicum of time there knows, very private people who are extremely sensitive to public opinion, i.e. the perception of them within their community. A working woman will, I suspect, be seen by many of her extended family and her friends, neighbours etc, as a bit of a pariah.
I understand that in KSA, the idea that women are banned from working except in certain women-only positions is a myth. There are restrictions, certainly, in what they may do in the workplace and how they may conduct themselves in the company of male colleagues (not to mention the absurd ban on female drivers) , but I believe that the government is actually having a serious problem getting women to work. That being said, there are many areas where women are starting to play increasingly important roles, and we frequently read about various women who work as designers (not just fashion, either), writers, businesswomen etc.
This process will continue, and indeed, like most social processes, will accelerate. As more women take the plunge, more in turn will see it as acceptable to join the workforce. Many more won't see it as a pleasant prospect actually having to work, but will do it as an alternative to starvation or mortgage foreclosure. Just like in the west!!
A big problem as I see it is men's attitudes. I have discussed the idea of working women with many Saudi men, and have received a broad spectrum of responses. Many older men see it as a poor reflection on their manhood or competence: "People will think I am making my wife work" or "people will think we are really poor". Some extremely conservative types just see it as a breach of religious dogma (not that many, however) or, more often, as "something that just isn't done". Many younger men, however, especially in cities, have no objections to the idea of their wives working, and indeed, I have even encountered a few who "really wish my wife would get off her ass and try to find a job!!" These are men with wives who are qualified as teachers, nurses etc.
About three years ago, I rang Riyad Bank call centre one day, and was answered by a female voice. Not only did she speak excellent English, but she was she a lot more competent than many of her male counterparts at the said institution. She was also very friendly and squeezed time in for a pleasant chat, and I asked her if many women did her job. She said not very many, but that she expected more would do so as the bank pursued a more pro-women policy of recruitment. She went on to say that a lot of the problem was that they couldn't get enough of a response from women to their ads. Speaking with her was a pleasant surprise, indeed a revelation.
I know a number of western women teaching in female establishments, who all tell me that while many of the students are lazy (a trait not monopolized by either Saudis or women) many more want careers, and see such as a means of getting out in the world and freeing themselves of the strictures of a conservative society. I also believe that many of them are conscientious, capable and have an excellent familiarity with western culture. For some reason, they also seem to generally do much better in exams. I wonder why????
To the broader issue of ambition in both male and female Saudis, yes, they all want senior positions, with big cars, laptops, high salaries, and snazzy mobile phones. Gee, how unlike young people elsewhere!!!! Fancy that, wanting to succeed in life!!
The difference lies in the fact that as a developing society (which they are, depite their considerable wealth) they don't have the same grasp as students in more developed societies what success entails, that it doesn't just mean studying hard to get good results in a very competitive academic environment, but years of hard work after graduation as well. The same problem occurs here in Romania, to a somewhat lesser extent.
However, in both KSA and Romania, the proverbial penny is starting to hit the ground with a loud clang.
As I've often said to colleagues who complain that the students don't want to pass exams, oh no, they most definitely DO want to pass, they just don't understand what it takes. Like one former colleague of mine says, when giving them hard class tests in preparation, you must show them the instruments of torture. Certainly, when their failure to work results in...well, poor results...it seems to goad many of them into working much harder and producing good results where it counts. I've seen many students in KSA perform dismally, only to repeat a semester with a chastened attitude and pass with very high marks.
That, I think, is the challenge facing any educator in KSA: motivating the students into studying through making them aware of the consequences of their laziness.
Why make very work, teechr? Why you absent me when not here? |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| What distinguishes them is not their desire to do so, but the fact that with the new (in relative terms) oil wealth, they can afford to do so, again jsut like the Compound Cathys!! |
Exactly.
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| A big problem as I see it is men's attitudes. |
Maybe, but as you say, for every man who forbids his wife to work, there is another who wishes his wife would contribute to the family economy (in a 'suitable' profession, of course) but she prefers life at home with the kids, maids and sisters-in-law.
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| she was she a lot more competent than many of her male counterparts at the said institution. |
I laughed out loud when I read this. As someone who once had the misfortune of working in a place where I was obliged to do my banking with Riad Bank, I can tell you that the incompetence of the female staff in that institution is almost legendary. Sure, they are charming and helpful, but they don't have the remotest clue what they are doing. Even by the standards of Saudi female banking staff, they are hopeless.
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| many more want careers, and see such as a means of getting out in the world and freeing themselves of the strictures of a conservative society. |
I have found that many young Saudi women say they want careers, but as you have said they often have little concept of the hard work, discipline and perseverance required in building a career. When I ask the (wealthy) young women I teach about their choice of future career, they invariably say "I want to open my own business". IE, they want a 'career' where daddy's money and wasta will get them an instant 'career', no hard slog or climbing of ladders required. Of course, women from less elite backgrounds do not have this option, and some of them do indeed do well in an often difficult environment. These women deserve every respect.
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| I also believe that many of them are conscientious, capable and have an excellent familiarity with western culture. |
Some Saudi women are all of these things. Some are none. Rather like Saudi men, I should imagine.
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| For some reason, they also seem to generally do much better in exams. I wonder why???? |
I don't know about the 'much' better, but in many countries around the world, girls tend to do better than boys in exams. That said, they still lag behind men in many aspects of life in the 'real world', for reasons which are probably too complex to go into on a mere EFL message board. |
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Bebsi
Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 958
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Maybe, but as you say, for every man who forbids his wife to work, there is another who wishes his wife would contribute to the family economy (in a 'suitable' profession, of course) but she prefers life at home with the kids, maids and sisters-in-law. |
I did say a big problem, but I also added that many want their wives to work.
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| As someone who once had the misfortune of working in a place where I was obliged to do my banking with Riad Bank, I can tell you that the incompetence of the female staff in that institution is almost legendary. Sure, they are charming and helpful, but they don't have the remotest clue what they are doing. Even by the standards of Saudi female banking staff, they are hopeless. |
Riyad Bank generally are a pain, in my experience. They are the worst bank in the kingdom when it comes to customer care and just generally dealing with people and paperwork seems to be beyond them. That woman, like I say, was a revelation. Maybe she was an exception, not so much to Saudi women, but to Riyad Bank staff generally. Well, OK, to be honest, she was!!
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I also believe that many of them are conscientious, capable and have an excellent familiarity with western culture.
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| Some Saudi women are all of these things. Some are none. Rather like Saudi men, I should imagine. |
Very true, not just of Saudis but people everywhere. Yes, it is true that there are many incapable and incompetent Saudis, but I would say that this applies to the developing world generally. In the west, these traits are also to be found, though less frequently so due, I suspect, to the necessity of "being on the ball more" in a highly competitive environment.
What we are as individuals depends to a large extent on our society, and every society, as pointed out earlier, evolves. It doesn't change oevrnight. However, certain external factors can hasten this evolution. In Romania, change is happening on a daily basis, as EU membership has brought into focus certain inadequacies, the elimination of which is vital to the country's economic success. I believe Saudi Arabia will evolve into a somewhat more competitive entity over the next twenty or so years. Ironically, that which has given them their wealth, also makes them complacent and lacadazical and generally uncompetitive.
As I say, God gave them the oil, but then for some reason he got angry...and left it to them. |
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007
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Sure, they are charming and helpful, but they don't have the remotest clue what they are doing. Even by the standards of Saudi female banking staff, they are hopeless. |
Which confirms the conclusion that the Saudi education system failed to prepare these Saudi females for the labour market.
| Bebsi wrote: |
| As I say, God gave them the oil, but then for some reason he got angry...and left it to them. |
God did not give them the oil.
God created the oil, which was discovered by uncle Sam, and sold by the Saudis under the �eyes� of uncle Sam. |
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Bebsi
Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 958
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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Well, yes of course 007...but haven't you ever heard of irony?
All joking aside, I take your point. |
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Queen of Sheba
Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 397
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| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:48 pm Post subject: Re: It's a place! |
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| Bebsi wrote: |
Many of the strongly enshrined social customs of KSA have very little to do with religion, they are much more the domain of deeply ingrained cultural values and beliefs. There is, of course, nothing in Islam that prevents women from working, or indeed that stipulates that women should cover their faces. And what about women driving? That is ludicrous...I certainly can't imagine anything in the Koran to the effect that "and ye women, ye shall be for evermore banished from the driving of motor cars in the time many ages from now when cars have been invented, and such driving shall remain the realm of your menfolk, yea".
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So often we try to understand and discuss this issue, yet as foreigners peeking into the Saudi conservative mentality, we are usually at a great disadvantage of understanding why its linked to religious conservative of this nation that women cannot drive. Indeed many Saudi do not know why they are divided over this issue, as it�s clearly not in the Quran or any hadith. Most seem to agree its a matter of controlling women and who and when they meet people, for those conservative families that are opposed to women driving. Other would say that is a red herring and conservative people believe if they budge on this issue that many other, more important but less discussed issues about Saudi Arabia will arise in the media and other traditional customs that aren�t necessarily religious either, will be brought into question. And so they oppose women driving so the focal point will continue to be in that for the Western media and mentality. It�s an old debate, at times interesting and usually pointless for expats to be involved in. Saudis will decide this one out in their own time, and our pushing them only causes an insular reaction in which they defend it and say they are not concerned about it, or about what outsiders think of them. |
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Bebsi
Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 958
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 12:08 am Post subject: |
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| It�s an old debate, at times interesting and usually pointless for expats to be involved in. Saudis will decide this one out in their own time, and our pushing them only causes an insular reaction in which they defend it and say they are not concerned about it, or about what outsiders think of them. |
Yes, at the end of the day, that's very true. |
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Queen of Sheba
Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 397
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Yes Bebsi, that's why I said it, unlike those on this forum as of late who hallucinate maidens and bards and regurgitate drivel, I dont speak about things with which I am not familiar. |
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shadowfax
Joined: 31 May 2003
Posts: 212
Location: Pocket Universe 935500921223097532957092196
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Thus Her Highness dubs thee, Sir Bebsi of the Transylvanian Towers, of mickle might and fortune, favoured beneath the smile of her sweet lily breath. |
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