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Henry_Cowell
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley
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 Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| JaredW wrote: |
| I would've been more correct, though, in saying that as a general rule of thumb, sentences with two independent clauses should maintain the same verb tense because most sentences follow this pattern. |
For beginning English students, this might be helpful -- but not for anyone else who writes and speaks English. Our language would be awfully boring with this "general rule of thumb." |
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zorro (3)
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 202
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| so how does mixing infinitives with gerunds in Chris 21's examples (1 and 3) cause any problems other than with style? |
I can't imagine ever saying or writing either of these utterances. I think that if one of my students repeatedly came out with patterns such as examples one and three I would correct them. Potential problems depend on the individual's reasons for learning English. If they need it to get a job or want it to integrate in an English speaking society, then they should be aware that native speakers don't come out with these utterances and they appear strange to the native ear. However, if they are learning English for the same reasons as the majority of Japanese students learn English (just because) and they won't be using it for anything ever for the rest of their lives, then I can't see it as a problem. |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 6:53 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I would've been more correct, though, in saying that as a general rule of thumb, sentences with two independent clauses should maintain the same verb tense because most sentences follow this pattern. |
Most sentences follow this pattern because they are looking at events from the same vantage point.
| Quote: |
| Okay, but how is this form of grammatical mistake any different from the "grammatical mistake" of splitting the infinitive? We all know that that was just a silly rule as was the "mistake" of ending a sentence with a preposition, so how does mixing infinitives with gerunds in Chris 21's examples (1 and 3) cause any problems other than with style? |
Grammar is no more than a description of certain elements of usage. The 'prohibitions' on split infinitives or ending sentences with prepositions are wrong because they don't describe actual English structure.
As has been pointed out here it is most unusual in English for one occurrence of a verb to govern an infinitive and then subsequently a gerund or vice-versa. The structure first chosen tends to control the structure that comes after.
Somewhat loosely linked is the use of one occurrence of a verb with two separate meanings as in
Angela came round so I decided to make amends and a cake.
These kind of sentences cause a double-take because the semantic value has already been established but is now violated. I suppose you could say they are ungrammatical but good style :)
Here are a couple more examples where expectation is violated:
*I'd love to see you and a coffee.
?I'd love a coffee and to see you.
*He hasn't done it or any idea.
In the following example no expectation is violated so I would say they are clumsy but grammatical.
The following are forbidden at all time in the classroom: mobile phones; eating and drinking; to chat up the teacher. |
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JonnyB61
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 216
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 3:16 am Post subject: |
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| Stephen Jones wrote: |
| Grammar is no more than a description of certain elements of usage. The 'prohibitions' on split infinitives or ending sentences with prepositions are wrong because they don't describe actual English structure. |
Agreed! Indeed the split infinitive and preposition ending debates were only caused by those attempting to stuff the English language into the rules of Latin. In large parts this works but, like trying to shove a human corpse into a suitcase, it leaves bits sticking out at the sides.
As a well known statesman once pointed out in his usual droll style:
"This is the kind of errant pedantry up with which I will not put."
Winston S. Churchill in reply to a sub-editor who had made a note in the margin of one of his manuscripts advising him to rewrite a sentence so that it didn't end with a preposition.
It wasn't Winnie Mandela LARS! |
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japanman
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 281
Location: England
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| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 6:13 am Post subject: |
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| The trouble with parralel structures is that once you get into that it starts issues as parralel realities, parralel states of conciuosness etc. All best avoided me thinks. |
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JaredW
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 105
Location: teaching high school in Sacramento, CA, USA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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| japanman wrote: |
| The trouble with parralel structures is that once you get into that it starts issues as parralel realities, parralel states of conciuosness etc. All best avoided me thinks. |
Which, in turn, leads to multi-verses on toward the Tenth Dimension. Yeah, I know what you mean. |
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stillnosheep
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 2068
Location: eslcafe
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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| furiousmilksheikali wrote: |
| Okay, but how is this form of grammatical mistake any different from the "grammatical mistake" of splitting the infinitive? We all know that that was just a silly rule as was the "mistake" of ending a sentence with a preposition, so how does mixing infinitives with gerunds in Chris 21's examples (1 and 3) cause any problems other than with style? |
It differs in that it is gramatically wrong, whereas there has never been a rule against ending a sentence with a preposition in English. |
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JonnyB61
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 216
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 3:44 am Post subject: |
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| stillnosheep wrote: |
| It differs in that it is gramatically wrong |
Hmmm? But is it grammatically wrong under all circumstances?
It would clearly be wrong to say:
I love eating and to drink.
Yet, how about this?
I've tried putting ointment on it but it doesn't seem to get any better.
You know, I'm suspicious that this issue follows the rules of Bridge. That is to say, if you can follow suit you must, but if you can't you can play a card of your choice.
There must be a more satisfactory answer than that.
We'll nail it eventually. 
Last edited by JonnyB61 on Sun Jun 10, 2007 7:36 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Clerk
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 4:04 am Post subject: |
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| JonnyB61 wrote: |
It would clearly be wrong to say:
Ilove eating and to drink.
Yet, how about this?
I've tried putting ointment on it but it doesn't seem to get any better.
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I would caution against using sensory verbs like seems, looks, sounds, etc. in this particular case because they are linked rather strongly with infinitives. |
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furiousmilksheikali
Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 1660
Location: In a coffee shop, splitting a 30,000 yen tab with Sekiguchi.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 6:11 am Post subject: |
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| stillnosheep wrote: |
| furiousmilksheikali wrote: |
| Okay, but how is this form of grammatical mistake any different from the "grammatical mistake" of splitting the infinitive? We all know that that was just a silly rule as was the "mistake" of ending a sentence with a preposition, so how does mixing infinitives with gerunds in Chris 21's examples (1 and 3) cause any problems other than with style? |
It differs in that it is gramatically wrong, whereas there has never been a rule against ending a sentence with a preposition in English. |
A question-begging definition if there ever was one. |
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JonnyB61
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 216
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 7:33 am Post subject: |
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No idea how this has happened!
Maybe I'll use this post later.
As you were.
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JaredW
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 105
Location: teaching high school in Sacramento, CA, USA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 8:29 am Post subject: |
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| stillnosheep wrote: |
| furiousmilksheikali wrote: |
| Okay, but how is this form of grammatical mistake any different from the "grammatical mistake" of splitting the infinitive? We all know that that was just a silly rule as was the "mistake" of ending a sentence with a preposition, so how does mixing infinitives with gerunds in Chris 21's examples (1 and 3) cause any problems other than with style? |
It differs in that it is gramatically wrong, whereas there has never been a rule against ending a sentence with a preposition in English. |
in English is a prepositional phrase where in is the preposition and English is the object of the preposition. Ending a sentence with a prepositional phrase is kosher.
But, ending with just a preposition is wrong (although colloquially acceptable) and what the person above was speaking about.
"At the conference, what language are you speaking in?" is technically wrong but conversationally acceptable. |
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kinshachi
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 50
Location: Sydney
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| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 11:13 am Post subject: |
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| JonnyB61 wrote: |
It would clearly be wrong to say:
I love eating and to drink.
Yet, how about this?
I've tried putting ointment on it but it doesn't seem to get any better. |
The difference is that the first sentence has mixed using a gerund or infinitive which depend on the same verb (love), which is clearly ungrammatical, or at least not parallel.
The second sentence is grammatical because the gerund and infinitive are not depending on the same verb (try and seem, respectively). In this case, the choice of gerund or infinitive follows the verb in the independent clause, not parallelism.
For example, if you'd written "I've tried putting ointment on it, but not to visit the doctor.", it would have violated parallelism. |
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stillnosheep
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 2068
Location: eslcafe
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| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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| JaredW wrote: |
| stillnosheep wrote: |
| [T]here has never been a rule against ending a sentence with a preposition in English. |
[B]ut, ending with just a preposition is wrong (although colloquially acceptable) and what the person above was speaking about.
"At the conference, what language are you speaking in?" is technically wrong but conversationally acceptable. |
No. The problem in your example is that the 'in' is superfluous. "What language will you be speaking at the conference?" is fine, without an 'in'.
As Stephen Jones has also made clear there is no problem with ending a sentence in English with a preposition. Sentences in Latin should not end on a prepostion; but English is not Latin and it is perfectly OK to end a sentence with a preposition in English. |
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JonnyB61
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 216
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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| stillnosheep wrote: |
| there is no problem with ending a sentence in English with a preposition. Sentences in Latin should not end on a prepostion; but English is not Latin and it is perfectly OK to end a sentence with a preposition in English. |
I wholeheartedly agree but, with respect, did I not make that same point several posts further up the board?
I think you'll find that I did.
Let's not disappear into ever decreasing circles here. |
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