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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005 Posts: 2279
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Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 6:28 am Post subject: |
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Kids that are just learning how to put together subject and verb, and who have terrible problems with singular and plural, should refrain from such discourse markers, IMO, sheik.
They need to learn the fundamentals before they can become Hemingways. |
I concur. Ali, I wasn't trying to correct your writing, rather the idea is first to get our students to crawl in the language, than walk, and finally run. I fully understand your idea, but I see a lot of student abbreviated sentences that have little rhyme or reason for their chosen sentence breaks. A lot of my students need work with using conjunctions and other joining words. If I had a lot of students writing run-on sentences then I would perhaps advocate the concept you're promoting. |
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Henry_Cowell

Joined: 27 May 2005 Posts: 3352 Location: Berkeley
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Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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From just a few books on my shelves:There is a well-known prescription prohibiting the use of coordinators at the beginning of a sentence. Nevertheless, coordination often occurs in this position. Sentence-initial or turn-initial coordination is most common at the beginning of a turn in conversation.... However, it is also relatively common in writing....
Longman Student Grammar of Spoken and Written English The coordinating conjunctions and, but, or, and nor are sometimes used as transitional expressions at the beginning of a sentence. When this occurs, do not insert a comma directly after the coordinating conjunction unless a parenthetical element begins at that point....Beginning a sentence with and or some other coordinating conjunction (but, or, or nor) can be an effective means--if not overused--of giving special attention to the thought that follows the conjunction....
Gregg Reference Manual Over the years, some English teachers have enforced the notion that and and but should be used only to join elements within a sentence, not to join one sentence with another. Not so. It's been common practice to begin sentences with them since at least as far back as the tenth century. But don't overdo it or your writing will sound monotonous.
Woe Is I And, from two of the most widely used grammar and style references in the U.S., note the following advice:Vary the beginnings of your sentences:
(3) Begin with a sentence connective -- a coordinating conjunction, a conjunctive adverb, or a transitional expression.
If any group has options to change and improve its life, it is the American middle class. And yet with freedom comes turmoil. (Gail Sheehy)
Harbrace College Handbook There is a widespread belief -- one with no historical or grammatical foundation -- that it is an error to begin a sentence with a conjunction such as and, but, or so. In fact, a substantial percentage (often as many as 10 percent) of the sentences in first-rate writing begin with conjunctions. It has been so for centuries, and even the most conservative grammarians have followed this practice. Charles Allen Lloyd's 1938 words fairly sum up the situation as it stands even today:
"Next to the groundless notion that it is incorrect to end an English sentence with a preposition, perhaps the most wide-spread of the many false beliefs about the use of our language is the equally groundless notion that it is incorrect to begin one with 'but' or 'and.' As in the case of the superstition about the prepositional ending, no textbook supports it, but apparently about half of our teachers of English go out of their way to handicap their pupils by inculcating it. One cannot help wondering whether those who teach such a monstrous doctrine ever read any English themselves."
Chicago Manual of Style |
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Glenski

Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 12844 Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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Henry,
Wonderful reference texts, and very accurate statements in them all... if our writers were native level speakers. My objections (being a Philistine and all) still stand for that reason. Japanese students are not even close to native level speakers and need far more hand-holding before the reach the stage where we should permit academic writing to reach the levels of the Chicago Manual of Style.
If anyone wants to proofread HS or university papers for me, come on over. |
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Henry_Cowell

Joined: 27 May 2005 Posts: 3352 Location: Berkeley
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Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:13 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| Wonderful reference texts, and very accurate statements in them all... if our writers were native level speakers. |
I really don't think that "native level" fluency is required before we encourage students to vary their sentence structures in writing. It's up to the instructor to show and analyze models and to provide appropriate cautions. |
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Glenski

Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 12844 Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:57 am Post subject: |
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Henry,
I was being slightly facetious about being native speaker fluent. Still, how much success have you truly had in making those cautions to Japanese students? Japanese teachers show models so much that they make students light-headed. And, plenty of us foreign teachers (ones that I know, anyway) try to educate the students about not starting sentences that way, yet they persist.
One reason, as I've already explained, is that they see them in textbooks (and nobody except us foreigners points out that those are just conversation snippets, not things for academic writing).
Another reason is, like my old school, many Japanese teachers actually teach that such things are acceptable despite "cautions" and "models" from the foreign teachers. You can't win for losing.
Ever read a couple of papers by John Izzo, from Aizu University, on this topic? |
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fluffyhamster
Joined: 13 Mar 2005 Posts: 3292 Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
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Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 7:31 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
Kids that are just learning how to put together subject and verb, and who have terrible problems with singular and plural, should refrain from such discourse markers, IMO, sheik.
They need to learn the fundamentals before they can become Hemingways. We usually teach academic writing, not novel writing. If you do the latter, you must have pretty high level students, and you should make it clear to them the difference. |
It would be interesting to know what your "fundamentals" would be, Glenski, when a) the OP didn't mention overly academic writing (as his initial examples well show), and b) the usage would seem generally useful (or do you intend to only ever teach a hermetically-sealed quasi-EAP to your students, in which your word is law?). |
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Gouki
Joined: 12 Mar 2003 Posts: 65
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 5:24 am Post subject: |
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| OP, tell your students that they are transitional words used to connect similar, additional or differences of ideas. Typically they (the ones that you've mentioned) should never begin a sentence unless the author chooses to place some emotional emphasis on the context. |
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gaijin4life
Joined: 23 Sep 2006 Posts: 150 Location: Westside of the Eastside, Japan
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 6:02 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
Kids that are just learning how to put together subject and verb, and who have terrible problems with singular and plural, should refrain from such discourse markers, IMO, sheik.
They need to learn the fundamentals before they can become Hemingways. ... If you do the latter, you must have pretty high level students, and you should make it clear to them the difference. |
I agree completely with Glenski. I would tell lower-level students that its not good to start a sentence with a conjunction - the purpose is to join clauses. I don`t think its a good habit for beginning students to get into.
Students at a higher level who can use conjunctions to good effect I would let go. But I would encourage beginning students to start from the basic SVO sentence structure and go from there. Another objection is stylistic. I dont think its a good style for beginning students. It is used in speech but ... |
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Glenski

Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 12844 Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| fluffyhamster wrote: |
| Glenski wrote: |
Kids that are just learning how to put together subject and verb, and who have terrible problems with singular and plural, should refrain from such discourse markers, IMO, sheik.
They need to learn the fundamentals before they can become Hemingways. We usually teach academic writing, not novel writing. If you do the latter, you must have pretty high level students, and you should make it clear to them the difference. |
It would be interesting to know what your "fundamentals" would be, Glenski, when a) the OP didn't mention overly academic writing (as his initial examples well show), and b) the usage would seem generally useful (or do you intend to only ever teach a hermetically-sealed quasi-EAP to your students, in which your word is law?). |
fluffy, read what I just wrote in the quote you made. Subject verb agreement is horribly lacking, as is the use of direct and indirect object. First hump in the "fundamentals", don't you think? What's really tough for some kids is in asking/writing questions, especially with subjects like "what kind of" or "what X". They usually put the X near the end of the sentence instead of after "what".
So, I'm not talking about high level kids at all. In fact, SVO is taught in JHS, but it is constantly butchered even through HS and early college. Let's get it right from the beginning, I say. And, I don't see as we are teaching anything except academic writing until they learn a few more pieces of grammar and how to use them, so let's leave the And and But beginnings out until for quite a while.
gouki wrote:
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| tell your students that they are transitional words used to connect similar, additional or differences of ideas. |
Yes, but of course you will have to use much simpler words. MUCH simpler. |
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