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Counting the Cost.
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Is the word 'Yen' a countable or uncountable noun?
Yen is an uncountable noun.
16%
 16%  [ 3 ]
Yen is a countable noun.
83%
 83%  [ 15 ]
Total Votes : 18

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Sweeney Todd



Joined: 29 Apr 2007
Posts: 71
Location: The Dosshouse Down the Mile End Road

PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bison
Corps
Deer

Means (as in a means to an end)
Moose
Referendum
Series
Sheep
Species


Except for one, all of these are examples of countable nouns which do not change their form from the singular to the plural.

Can you spot the odd one out, Children?

Yen is another example of this. It is the same in the singular and the plural but it is still a countable noun.
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gaijinalways



Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279

PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I have come to believe that. It fits the rule of currencies being countable, it just happens to be an irregular noun that is the same whether in the plural or singular form (like the previously offered 'sheep' example).

The question 'How many yen do you have?' (versus 'How much money do you have?') still sounds odd though. I suppose it might more likely come up in a traveling situation, where one might have several currencies, but someone is asking about a particular one, yen.
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kinshachi



Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 50
Location: Sydney

PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sweeney Todd wrote:
Bison
Corps
Deer

Means (as in a means to an end)
Moose
Referendum
Series
Sheep
Species


Except for one, all of these are examples of countable nouns which do not change their form from the singular to the plural.

Can you spot the odd one out, Children?

Yen is another example of this. It is the same in the singular and the plural but it is still a countable noun.


I fully agree, and I'll take the bait. The plural of referendum is referenda, like datum/data, or medium/media, based on the original Latin plural form, although I've never heard anyone use "musea" or "capsica", so it's application is a bit haphazard.

I'd also add "fish" to the above list, notwithstanding occasional uses of the archaic plural "fishes", the normal plural these days is "(two) fish".

Why confine this thread to "yen"? I seem to remember a similar debate about "gaijins" not too long ago... And what about other Japanese loanwords in English? Should we say tsunami or tsunamis? Seven samurai or samurais? Ninjas? Shurikens? Geishas? Kimonos?

The problem is, those who know Japanese generally defer to the rule in Japanese (ie. no change from singular to plural). Those who don't, which, of course, includes the vast majority of English speakers, generally don't feel comfortable with unchanged plurals and try to add an 's'...
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JonnyB61



Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 216
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kinshachi wrote:
Why confine this thread to "yen"?


I started this thread in this manner because I passed comment on the word Yen on another thread and I got flamed for my opinion. I wanted to throw the question open to debate and I'm happy that this seems to be happening.

Thank you for your observations but I really don't want us to discuss other words on this thread, (how about opening a new thread), I want us to stick to the word Yen here. Also, and let me make this gin-clear, I want us to discuss how we treat the word Yen when we speak English, not how the Japanese treat the word when they speak Japanese. This is basic and crucial. Please bare with me.

By the way, I'm sure you are right about referendum/ referenda as well. Wink

On a final note, is no-one going to flame me for the corny pun in the title of this thread?
You do diasappoint me.
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Sweeney Todd



Joined: 29 Apr 2007
Posts: 71
Location: The Dosshouse Down the Mile End Road

PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kinshachi wrote:
I fully agree, and I'll take the bait. The plural of referendum is referenda, like datum/data, or medium/media, based on the original Latin plural form, although I've never heard anyone use "musea" or "capsica", so it's application is a bit haphazard.


Spot on, and well done. It wasn't very difficult, was it? Neat observations re: "musea" and "capsica" as well. I'd never thought of those before.

On another note, I'll give odds of 33 / 1 that the lone pillock who voted for "uncountable" in this poll was the Japan Board Troll.
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Henry_Cowell



Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley

PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any unit of money such as yen is countable. But when we use the word yen in English, we don't form the plural by adding the letter s, even though yen is countable. Many posters have already provided sufficient explanation of this point.

So I think you have your answer, JonnyB:

yen is a countable noun in English. Its plural is yen.

"I have 3,000 yen."
"Do you have some yen?"
"I don't have any yen."

The only criterion for countability is whether we can speak about (and "count") separate items or if we must talk about an undifferentiated mass.

"I have a lot of money." (Money itself is an uncountable mass of the stuff, but units of money are countable.)

"I have a lot of yen." (Yen are countable because they are defined to be units of money.)
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Yawarakaijin



Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 504
Location: Middle of Nagano

PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll put my two yen in again Wink

Even though my post my nominated as "most boring post ever" I will stand by what I wrote before.

Although yen is clearly a countable noun like dollars or pounds or what have you, there are certainly unique situations where we treat it as being a non-count noun.

I'm not a linguistics major and am incapable of describing exactly what happens in our brain to make it so, but please tell me which sounds more natural to you.

"How much yen do you have on you?"
or
"How many yen do you have on you?"

Am I wrong in stating that within Japan, among foreigners, the 1st example is heard much more often?

I will however vote that yes, yen is a countable noun.
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DNK



Joined: 22 Jan 2007
Posts: 236
Location: the South

PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will reiterate that, at least for me, the reason why "much" sounds correct is because "yen" is mentally equated with "Japanese money". The reason it is used and not just money is probably due to the fact that it is considered fundamentally different to someone unaccustomed to thinking of money in international terms, and who would have an image of it as dollars/pounds.

This is, of course, regardless of the fact that it is fundamentally the same thing.

"Japanese money" is probably not used because it sounds awkward as hell.

Does anyone feel differently? This makes the most sense, personally, as any native speaker should immediately spot "much dollars/sheep/books" as wrong; so there must be a psychological difference between yen and dollars in these cases.
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Yawarakaijin



Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 504
Location: Middle of Nagano

PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I made the exact same point in another thread. I also imagine it to be some kind of (insert correct linguistic term here) where the meaning of YEN to us (foreigners living in Japan) is bascially treated as money and thus ,when it comes to using much and many, is treated as such.

Not a hard concept to imagine, but I got in trouble for it. Wink
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Sweeney Todd



Joined: 29 Apr 2007
Posts: 71
Location: The Dosshouse Down the Mile End Road

PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The notion of a flat Earth is the idea that the inhabited surface of Earth is flat, rather than a curved, spherical Earth. This idea has been roundly disproved for many centuries, and the term "flat earther" is sometimes used colloquially to describe those who cling to discredited ideas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth
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Stephen Jones



Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124

PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Does anyone feel differently? This makes the most sense, personally, as any native speaker should immediately spot "much dollars/sheep/books" as wrong; so there must be a psychological difference between yen and dollars in these cases.
I never have any yen so I can't comment on its use as an uncountable equivalent of money or cash.

The equivalent to '?how much yen' would be '*how much dollar'. Incidentally there are very few Google hits for the former (and half of the first page are references to Dave's) so I suspect the usage is quite limited in extent.

Incidentally nobody is mentioning the other currency which doesn't change in the plural, which is 'lira'.

And I would use 'referendums' as the plural of 'referendum'. There are very, very few Latin borrowings where the Latin plural is mandatory.
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Henry_Cowell



Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley

PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stephen Jones wrote:
And I would use 'referendums' as the plural of 'referendum'. There are very, very few Latin borrowings where the Latin plural is mandatory.

Exactly. I laugh when seemingly educated people insist on using the plural fora instead of forums. Do they think they're trying to impress their old Latin teacher?

Yes, fora is in the dictionary. Does that mean that people other than the Pope must use it? No.
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