Job Discussion Forums

[gaijinalways]

I went to a JALT (Japan language teacher's association) meeting in Yokohama a while back, and remember a heated discussion we had about some textbooks used in junior high and high school　in Japan that feature the following grammar points;

A Hi, my name is Ogawa Yuki.

B Hi Ogawa.

A No, my name is Yuki.

B Oh, you mean Ogawa is your family name.

Of course, it was mentioned that Chinese names are often listed with the family name first in media sources. Generally, some thought that it might cause more confusion to give a family name first.

Also, you get people listing a name on a business card like this;

OGAWA Yuki

Yes, the family name in all caps (I have seen this on a few business cards here).

The reason I brought this up is, how much of a foreign divergence should you allow in a 'brand' of English? Some of the JALT chapter members took an extreme position and wanted to create an Ainu English in addition to the above Japlish (Japanese English) examples. I would say as Japanese English is not really a well recognized English, it's pointless and will just cause more confusion.

What do you　think? Should we also start speaking other languages with English grammar (no, no said some of the members, which is a kind of double standard)?

[Glenski]

I'm sorry, but I'm a little lost. Stating one's family name first is not a grammar point, but a cultural one.

To imagine speaking another language using English grammar is weird, too.

[Ahchoo]

I learn some very good Chinese grammar by listening to self taught English speakers using English with Chinese grammar.
They translate the words from a dictionary but not having studied grammar, use Chinese grammar.
Very useful.

[tedkarma]

Cultural and grammatical issues abound in TEFL.

One reason people, media, publications, textbooks, etc might capitalize a family name is that it is a transliteration anyway from a language that has no uppercaser or lowercase characters. No big deal - teach your students the correct way to do it in English.

Chinese and Korean specifically use the family name first - I am not sure about Japanese - and you have to balance what is appropriate. I live in Thailand where it is the cultural norm to say things like "Mr Teddy" using my first name - this is not unique to Thailand - it is also common in the Middle East. You just need to decide what is most appropriate and useful for your students.

You'll run into these things all the time - no big deal - part of the fun of it all!

[fluffyhamster]

The dialog that the OP quoted is pretty silly, but not untypical of high school textbooks (they just love chances to "inform", "repair" etc (i.e. patronize the **** out of the students)). If only the real world were as full of such clueless types (not only the long-suffering Japanese, but especially the dumb foreigners) - just think of how much "easier", yet more "interesting", English conversations would be for everyone!

[gaijinalways]

[guty]

Bond, James Bond.

[GambateBingBangBOOM]

I don't have any problem with Japanese students using the family, given system- but most don't do it that way anyway.

I don't switch to a family given style when I use Japanese, and I've only ever known one foreigner who did (and truthfully, people- both Japanese and foreigners- thought he was a bit of a twit for doing it).

I don't have a problem with it because it's THEIR name. If they want to use their own name in the order they are accustomed to using it, then that's fine. I've only ever known a couple of Japanese people (not students of mine) who used a western given name instead of their own name when they used English. they did it to make it easier for people to remember, but it was a little wierd. My Chinese students in Canada almost always chose a Western name just because they said that Canadians who don't speak any Chinese language seem to always manage to say their names totally unrelated to how they are expecting to hear it and so they don't respond when people say their name.

It does make it a bit confusing for foreigners when they first arrive in Japan though because they often don't know which is the given name and which is the family name. After you've been here for a while, then usually you know which is which.

ETA Most Canadian people go by their given name even when they've just met someone. Most Japanese people go by their family name. So by using the family then given system, they make it more likely that English native speakers will call them by the name they prefer.

[gaijinalways]

Yes, but then you end up with Ms. Yasuko rather than Yasuko. That seems pretty odd to me.