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fluffyhamster



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again

PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:16 am    Post subject: Be my Guest Reply with quote

Anyone else read Mike Guest's article in today's Daily Yomiuri? ('Primary school English - what's the purpose?'). He's not convinced of the point of English at this level, and I pretty much agree with all he said.

I searched for an online version, but no luck.
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Glenski



Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since the article is not available and you really haven't said anything substantive, how are we supposed to respond, Fluffy? Paraphrase.
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JonnyB61



Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 216
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, what's your question?
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furiousmilksheikali



Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 1660
Location: In a coffee shop, splitting a 30,000 yen tab with Sekiguchi.

PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Be my Guest Reply with quote

fluffyhamster wrote:
Anyone else read Mike Guest's article in today's Daily Yomiuri? ('Primary school English - what's the purpose?'). He's not convinced of the point of English at this level, and I pretty much agree with all he said.

I searched for an online version, but no luck.


Mike Guest annoys me. I won't even bother explaining right now. But if you have even read one of his articles and you are not a complete cretin you will understand what I mean. More later.
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fluffyhamster



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again

PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's my question? Why two tightwads who obviously haven't got hold of a copy of the paper today are so itching to find out about it that they're prodding me with Stimpy's-friend-Ren-like fingers. Smile (For language teachers, you should know how to phrase requests more politely, no? Twisted Evil). But very briefly (and from only having read the article once through quickly, hours ago) Guest seemed to be saying that seeing as kids below 12 or so have 'exchanges' rather than full-on conversations, it's maybe ultimately pointless trying to teach them anything remotely ambitious (not that the activities that are dusted off for most kids are that ambitious or likely to be effective in themselves - which undercuts Guest somewhat, because few are really teaching conversation anyway, and certainly not to this age-group; I'd also query why Guest doesn't suggest that we don't then try teaching kids the sort of exchanges he alludes to as a form of "conversation" they might better relate to and thus grasp more easily). He's in favour rather of improving reading skills (something that non-native teachers will feel they might actually be able to help with), as an aid to wider reading and acquisition, and of acquisition processes generally (he even calls English (~ as taught at present) a distraction from mastering kanji). He finishes by mentioning Albanian kids who apparently learnt a fair bit of Italian just from being around TVs that could pick up the broadcasts from outside the closed-off country back then).

I'll perhaps type up the article if it doesn't appear online soon, and hone my own response to it.

Hi Furious, I was aware that Guest had come in for some criticism (which writer doesn't)...it'll be interesting to hear what your specific objections are. I don't think he patronizes the reader too much or too often, but then again, I could well be one of those cretins you mention. Razz

By the way, I'm assuming that those who respond actually have some experience of teaching in elementary schools here. Wink
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JonnyB61



Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 216
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fluffyhamster wrote:
What's my question? Why two tightwads who obviously haven't got hold of a copy of the paper today are so itching to find out about it that they're prodding me with Stimpy's-friend-Ren-like fingers. Smile (For language teachers, you should know how to phrase requests more politely, no? Twisted Evil). But very briefly (and from only having read the article once through quickly, hours ago) Guest seemed to be saying that seeing as kids below 12 or so have 'exchanges' rather than full-on conversations, it's maybe ultimately pointless trying to teach them anything remotely ambitious (not that the activities that are dusted off for most kids are that ambitious or likely to be effective in themselves - which undercuts Guest somewhat, because few are really teaching conversation anyway, and certainly not to this age-group; I'd also query why Guest doesn't suggest that we don't then try teaching kids the sort of exchanges he alludes to as a form of "conversation" they might better relate to and thus grasp more easily). He's in favour rather of improving reading skills (something that non-native teachers will feel they might actually be able to help with), as an aid to wider reading and acquisition, and of acquisition processes generally (he even calls English (~ as taught at present) a distraction from mastering kanji). He finishes by mentioning Albanian kids who apparently learnt a fair bit of Italian just from being around TVs that could pick up the broadcasts from outside the closed-off country back then).

I'll perhaps type up the article if it doesn't appear online soon, and hone my own response to it.

Hi Furious, I was aware that Guest had come in for some criticism (which writer doesn't)...it'll be interesting to hear what your specific objections are. I don't think he patronizes the reader too much or too often, but then again, I could well be one of those cretins you mention. Razz

By the way, I'm assuming that those who respond actually have some experience of teaching in elementary schools here. Wink


Wow!
Is he on drink, or drugs?
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fluffyhamster



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again

PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JonnyB61 wrote:
Wow!
Is he on drink, or drugs?


Who, Guest or me? Laughing
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gaijinalways



Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279

PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guest is annoying at times, but he sometimes says things that I agree with. What is annoying is that certain people command columns about language when sometimes they don't research well what they want to talk about.

Guest admits he doesn't teach kids (maybe never has), so he early on somewhat disqualifies himself as an experienced expert Rolling Eyes ( I assume he is trying to pass himself off as a theoretical one). His point is an interesting one, though kids do learn language passively at young ages, though it depends on the age as he wasn't very specific in the article.

I have had kids as young as 3-4 readily picking up what I say in the classroom. One other problem would be if the kids can read, and how well qualified Japanese teachers would be to teach English language reading in elementary school.
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Glenski



Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What's my question? Why two tightwads who obviously haven't got hold of a copy of the paper today
Learn to be more polite, fluffy. That paper is not available in my area, nor is it available all over Japan. Admit that your OP was practically empty of anything that people could comment on. You asked if anyone had read the article. I hadn't and asked for what it said, something you should have written in the OP. To paraphrase you, a language teacher should know how to set up his audience to answer questions, no? Twisted Evil

Look at this next quip:
Quote:
But very briefly (and from only having read the article once through quickly, hours ago)
So, you admit that you aren't really even very prepared to comment on it yourself, eh? I agree with sheik's assessment of Mr. Guest, and even if I had read the article, I would have looked at it more carefully than you in order to hold a discussion of any worth here.

Quote:
Guest seemed to be saying that seeing as kids below 12 or so have 'exchanges' rather than full-on conversations, it's maybe ultimately pointless trying to teach them anything remotely ambitious
Going on this bare bones statement alone, I would agree and disagree. Depends on what one calls "full-on conversations" and "ambitious". Can't comment further without knowing more, except to say that I totally disagree with his use of the strong words "ultimately pointless".
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JimDunlop2



Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 2286
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 2:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's no way I'm going to be typing out Guest's drivel. But I DO have a scanner... (Sorry, no OCR software). So here it is for those of you who want to read it and comment on it.




Click on the link below to open in a new browser window and make it big enough to read.

[img=http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/3260/yomiurijun2207vt8.th.jpg]
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markle



Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Posts: 1316
Location: Out of Japan

PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

really though we are talking about a comment in a mass circulation, English language, Japanese newspaper by a person that, by looking at his CV (I googled him) basically dabbles in ESL on the side. Most likely he got the gig by knowing the editor (might even play tennis wit him) rather than on the strength of some solid ESL credentials.

really, to pharaphrase "What's the point"
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chirp



Joined: 03 Dec 2005
Posts: 148

PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the article Jim - helps to know what I should be talking about! Wink

I have taught English in Japan at the elementary school level, but only in the public system, based on the curriculum provided me by the Board of Education.

In the inaka where I lived, students in grades 1-4 got a 45 minute English 3 times in a school year. In grades 5 & 6, this increased to 6 times a year. So, based on this limited experience, here are my thoughts...

I have to agree that I don't know how much value English lessons 3 (or even 6) times a year could be for most students. Many of the students in my classes couldn't form English letters, since they are not taught this skill in school until junior high. We used a lot of flashcards and yes, the topics were things like: fruits, vegetables, numbers, countries, months, days etc.

I agree that teaching reading to students or even the letters might be more useful. In my Board however, that would have only worked if I was teaching them more often. I would have loved to read to the kids in English, just simple stories, but that was not part of the curriculum. They only wanted "genki" English on the topics they chose.

Given that I was in the inaka however, I was one of the few foreigners (and maybe the first) these kids had seen. Perhaps there is some value in that. Kids who had been overseas or had some comfort level with English were able to talk to me at lunch, at recess etc. Many of their teachers couldn't even greet me in English (not that I expected it - just pointing out that they were not comfortable), so these students wouldn't normally have that outlet.

I must admit though that I was surprised by some things by the end of the year. Although the kids might not see me for months between my visits (I alternated schedules with another ALT), they remembered patterns that I taught them.

I was overjoyed to hear one of my junior high JTEs jokingly tell me that he knew I had visited his 6 year old's class when she came home and asked for a cucumber in English. And I do mean "asked". By using plastic vegetables, the kids went around asking each other for the vegetable in their hand.

A: Cucumber, please.
B: (hands over cucumber) Here you are.
A: Thank you.
B: You're welcome.

This was by no means revolutionary, but they were mini conversations. Meaningful? Maybe not, but at least they were polite. And they were only first graders, and had just learned the words.

When I finally rotated back to a class I had previously taught, I was touched to hear them repeat something they had learned from me months before.

One of my schools even had me teach an extra period of "physical play". Not my favourite part of the day, but I taught the kids to play some games in English. And since the other teachers didn't speak English (and my Japanese is limited Embarassed ), this was truly an extra English class.

Where am I going with this? The value in teaching English in elementary school may not be that they learn to hold conversations. It might just be exposing them to something they will be forced to study in later years. And by having some fun with it, maybe it will seem less threatening later on.

If I were in charge of the curriculum, I would make heaps of changes, but I'm not. And if the goal of English education in Japan remains to pass exams and not to actually be able to communicate in the language, then frankly, what difference does it make? Elementary school children have enough pressure, as evidenced by the alarming numbers of them that attempt or commit suicide. They are just kids. Why can't it be fun?

Again, this was just my humble opinion based on my very limited experience.
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Glenski



Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guest: "I have rarely taught English to children, nor have I read extensively in the field...Nonetheless I have some concerns regarding how English classes may be carried out at primary schools..."

Ok, he admits he knows next to nothing and simply has some concerns. Fine. This is an opinion paper with about as much academic basis as any foreigner with no teaching background could offer. Take everything else he says with this in mind, and you will be fine.

"The idea of teaching conversation to children in public schools seems daft to me."
Ok, by public school, he means primary school. Fine. It's stupid, eh? Next comment is sarcastic and as non-academically merited as they come:
"Preparation for a very remote possibility that the child might have a unilingual English-speaking playmate soon?"
Mike, why do you say very remote?
Mike, why do you assume that anyone who speaks English is unilingual, especially in this day and age of internationalization?
Mike, why do you limit the focus only to the near future of a playmate? Have you not even considered the fact that exposing kids early may stir their motivation when they get the more boring aspects of learning a language (ie, the grammar)? I think you haven't.
VERY narrow minded, but Guest admits he is ignorant. It shows.

"Second, children really don't have conversations. Not even in their mother tongues...Instead, until about age 12, they have exchanges." [emphasis is Guest's.]
Unbelievable! Whether it's in one-word structures or full SVO sentences, children at the primary school age have conversations! Come and chat with my 3-year-old, and once you get past the shy stage (about 5 minutes), you'll get SVO sentences in either language. He's not the only kid like that, either. Are we all mutes, Mike? But, you admit to being ignorant.

"Nor do children have reflective conversations of the 'what do you think of...?' variety."
More ignorant fallacy. I guess his own 11-year-old son must be a shut-in. Even kids at my own's age are able to tell you their feelings about things. Pretty reflective, even if it's not an adult-level articulated discussion.

"...the notion that they would develop conversation skills in a second language seems odd."
To an ignorant person, I suppose so. We aren't talking about producing 7-year-olds or 12-year-olds with the ability to debate college professors or hold speech contests. Communication here with spoken language. You gotta start somewhere, and I would hazard a guess that Guest doesn't believe that primary school age children are in their formative years of learning. Leaving things to start in junior high is too late, and is often frought with problems (see one below).

Shifting gears in the very next sentence, he writes:
"Anyway, this would seem to be in the domain of Eikaiwa [sic] schools, not the public school system."
1) He ignores private schools.
2) He thinks conversation should be taught only in eikaiwa.
Well, since his own son admittedly picked up English on his own, how would he know about #2? How do Japanese kids pick up their own conversation skills? Probably in school and on the playground and at home. More ignorance.

"Children do not reflect upon language (in the sense of conscious noticing and deliberate application) that adults do."
Gee, this is probably the first and only thing he got right, but how does it apply to teaching English in primary school? It doesn't, but Guest writes it all off simply by saying:
"Thus, the notion of teaching English to children seems largely futile from the get-go."
Congratulations on completely dissing every country that has bilingual or trilingual education, Mike. But, you admit to being ignorant. Besides, just because kids don't consciously reflect upon the language (and they actually MIGHT), that doesn't mean you shouldn't expose them to it and instill in them a sense of fun over the newness or difference with their own. Get them interested early so that when junior high rolls around, they have something to go on and don't have to start with ABCs.

"I've also seen children's lessons which seem little more than taxonomies of lexical items...I'm not sure what the point of teaching these items are [sic] either."
Of course you wouldn't. You're ignorant. Blatantly ignorant on this one, because if you are dealing with very young children, you don't start with the SVO approach, you start with groups of objects and get them accustomed to them, throwing in a verb here and there to add structure. How else do you think TV programs like Eigo de Asobo work? Or even teaching L1? By repeating colors, foods, animals, days of the week, etc.? Pretty much works at any age level, too. When adults learn a foreign language, they get lexical items often, too.

He then trashes the use of lexical items and many games that he has apparently seen (with his admitted lack of knowledge, how many can that be?) as being "memorization devices or as mere grammar practice dressed up in pretty colors". Well, Mike, you don't learn without memorizing, do you? And, if you don't dress up a foreign language for primary school age kids, how else are you going to get their attention and keep it. But, you are admittedly ignorant.

"Frankly, I think that primary school should focus upon reading first and foremost."
Congratulations on showing utter nonsensical ignorance again. Reading, the most passive and boring skill there is. Yup, primary school kids will sit still for that. I wonder how your classes at Miyazaki University go.

"Learning English phonics..."
Wait. You just said reading, not speaking, which is more closely related to phonics.

I'll skip through his talk about the merits of reading over speaking, even though reading itself DOES have merits. Look at this next horrific statement:
"Doing a bunch of stuff in English without specific language targets or "lesson plans" would seem most effective to me." [emphasis is mine now.]
Well, then, I wouldn't want to be a student in your classes, and it makes one wonder just how you became a teacher.

I'm sorry, folks, I can't really go on any longer. This whole article is a waste of a reader's time, and even with Guest's disclaimer to being "in virgin territory here", he has falsely earned his paycheck for this article, IMO.

Please, fluffyhamster, what is YOUR opinion, and will anyone write back to the newspaper to bash Guest's words of "wisdom"? Personally, I don't want to waste my time, but he seems to need it.
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gaijinalways



Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279

PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, Glenski touched on a lot of things I wanted to say. Yes, Guest admits to having a 11 year old son, and limited public school teaching, whatever that means.

I agree with Glenski's comments concerning 'real' conversations, as evidenced by my friend's 3 year old. She often uses Japanese as a first language (rather than N. American English, her parents' first language), but granted she has many more hours of exposure in her day care center than an average Japanerse elementary school/middle school student.

Guest sometimes comes off wide of the mark, and this is one of those times he should have left well enough and just voiced his remark as a concerned parent rather than an ESL early education professional. Well, at least he is brave enough to give an email address Rolling Eyes .
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6810



Joined: 16 Nov 2003
Posts: 309

PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guest is often rather off the mark... his position is a bloated not a qualified one.

I guess all the bi and tri-lingual education in Europe is really fiction...

He's not ignorant, he's a moron.

BTW, many mono-lingual adults frequently do not consciously reflect on their language usage... not any more or less than a child
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