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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
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 Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 5:36 am Post subject: |
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| The sport is very much appreciated here and is more enjoyable to watch in the stands here than it is the States. Every game is enjoyed as if it were a festival. |
I'm not quite sure I would agree that orchestrated cheering equals a more enjoyable time. I guess it depends on who you talk to. Most of the Japanese baseball is a lot more predictable and defensive minded, which again doesn't necessarily make for more exciting play.
gonzarell posted
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| This sounds familiar. I've met a lot of folks who live and work in Japan but haven't learned even a little bit of Japanese. They're just here for the money or whatever. |
I hope they have learned a little. I have, and I probably have forgotten a lot too.
Ali,
I don't know why they're giving you so much guff about what you like. There's a canuck at work who is a big rugby fan. Surprising, but hey, with cable and Internet TV you can watch and follow just about anything, including sports  . |
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Chris21
Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 366
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Your baseball math is laughable...honestly...laughable. |
Perhaps the Internet isn't the best vehicle for subtlety. My math was supposed to be laughable because I was making fun of your logic. My point was that an MVP award isn't the sole measure of whether of a player is superior or not. While Jason Giambi won an MVP award and Gwynn didn't, few people would ever say that Giambi is a better player than Gwynn. By the same logic, Dale Murphy wasn't a superior player to Ichiro, simply because he had more MVP awards.
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| Seems like you like to shift arguments. Tony Gwynn hit, depending on his career in different slots, but for the sake of this discussion, let's peg him in the 2nd or 3rd slot in the lineup. Your 3rd batter traditionally is the guy who drives in the runs and hits for power, something Gwynn didn't do. He was someone who hit singles to all parts of the ballpark (like Ichiro.) For the sake of this discussion, it shouldn't matter where the person hit in the lineup. |
I'll explain this one as well. It matters when one player has significantly more at-bats because of where they hit in the order. Whether right or wrong, Gwynn rarely hit lead-off for SD and the result was far fewer at-bats than Ichiro. So comparing total hits is not a fair comparison. BA puts them on a level playing field, and Gwynn comes out on top. Also, you haven't addressed that Ichiro's BA reflects his prime. Will he still have a lifetime BA of .332 at 38 years old, when he loses a step and can't beat out those infield singles. Defences will also be able to cheat on him a bit more and play back. I'd be surprised if he ends up with a career BA of over .320 when he retires.
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| There is no doubt that Tony Gwynn had an excellent career, and was a great player. However, Ichiro has also put up excellent and comparable numbers. Ichiro also has had some remarkable accomplishments. |
Exactly. Let me be extremely clear on this point. Since the beginning of this debate, I've simply been making the point that Ichiro and Gwynn are/were similar offensive players. I'm not saying Ichiro is terrible or unworthy of immense respect as a ball player. Ichiro's my favourite player and I think he's got a chance to put up some truly gawdy career stats. The consistent 100-run, 200-hit thing is wonderful (although not unprecedented, Wade Boggs put up a bunch as well).
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Most Hits in first 1,000 Games
1,414 in his first 1,000 major league games. At this pace, he could reach the 3,000-mark sometime in his 14th season, when he'd be 40 years old.
Al Simmons... 1,433
Ichiro Suzuki... 1,414
George Sisler... 1,411
Ty Cobb... 1,404
Wade Boggs... 1,351
Kirby Puckett... 1,329 |
Ichiro entered the league as a 27-year old pro. Essentially, Ichiro has been in his prime since he made the jump to MLB, certainly giving him an advantage over those other guys on the list. Most other players enter as 22 or 23 year olds, from AAA or AA.
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Ichiro Hitting Streaks
23 games (2001)
23 games (2001)
21 games (2001)
21 games (2004)
21 games (2001)
21 games (2004)
19 games (2003)
19 games (2003)
Tony Gwynn Hitting Streaks
25 games (1983)
25 games (1983)
20 games (1997)
20 games (1997)
19 games (1997)
19 games (1997) |
They look pretty similar to me. Ichiro had more in the 20's but Gwynn had the two best ones. If anything, I think this again shows that they were similar. Although, I'm not sure how much stock to put in this... Luis Castillo had a 35-gamer and Benito Santiago had a 34-gamer - and both of those guys suck. |
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User N. Ame
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 222
Location: Kanto
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| gaijinalways wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The sport is very much appreciated here and is more enjoyable to watch in the stands here than it is the States. Every game is enjoyed as if it were a festival. |
I'm not quite sure I would agree that orchestrated cheering equals a more enjoyable time. I guess it depends on who you talk to. Most of the Japanese baseball is a lot more predictable and defensive minded, which again doesn't necessarily make for more exciting play. |
gaijinalways, you are absolutely right in your observation, and you aren't alone. The highly organized cheering sections are led, usually, by paid professionals, and while being in the midst of this at the stadium is exciting, the novelty wears thin pretty quick, because it's so staged and predictable. The cheers are exactly the same over and over and over and over ad nauseum, whether the home team is up 2-1, or down 21-0. Even Hideki Matsui remarked at how refreshing it was to play in a league (shortly after his arrival in NY) for a home crowd that cheered when it should, and booed when it should.
The Japanese style of baseball is the diametric opposite of the American game. The bunt is the big play in Japan, and this often had me screaming at my TV... "WTF are you doing! Bunting with 2 out and run a scoring position, and your down a run!!!" The Japanese game is very mechanical, thus very predictable, very very little room for individual creativity. I'm a big fan of the sac-bunt and squeeze play, but every inning, every second batter, and with 1 out? The high school game is even worse in this regard.
Having said all this, if you leave Japan without having experienced a Tigers game at Hanshin Stadium, you're missing out on a unique sporting experience. |
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Gurdeep Rivenvald III
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 27
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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| User N. Ame wrote: |
| "WTF are you doing! Bunting with 2 out and run a scoring position, and your down a run!!!" The Japanese game is very mechanical, thus very predictable, very very little room for individual creativity. I'm a big fan of the sac-bunt and squeeze play, but every inning, every second batter, and with 1 out? |
Why do you choose to illustrate your point with something that never happens? In Japan, they tend to play more small ball rather than wait for the 3 run homer a la Earl Weaver. There are lots of teams in MLB that also do the same, depending on the type of players on the roster. Where you view the Japanese game as boring, many purists view it as efficient, and some say the way the game should be played, and steroid free to boot.
Why is it when American fans cheer for their teams, they have great fans where Japanese fans cheer for their teams, it's "staged and predictable?" The Japanese baseball fans in many ways react and cheer as NFL fans do, but you wouldn't call them "staged and predictable" would you? |
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User N. Ame
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 222
Location: Kanto
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 1:45 am Post subject: |
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| Gurdeep Rivenvald III wrote: |
| User N. Ame wrote: |
| "WTF are you doing! Bunting with 2 out and run a scoring position, and your down a run!!!" The Japanese game is very mechanical, thus very predictable, very very little room for individual creativity. I'm a big fan of the sac-bunt and squeeze play, but every inning, every second batter, and with 1 out? |
In Japan, they tend to play more small ball rather than wait for the 3 run homer a la Earl Weaver. There are lots of teams in MLB that also do the same, depending on the type of players on the roster. Where you view the Japanese game as boring, many purists view it as efficient, and some say the way the game should be played, and steroid free to boot. |
No, I can think of no MLB team that has much in common with the style of the Hanshin Tigers or Tokyo Giants. It's a completely different game. I'm not a purist, and I generally enjoy the Japanese game, but it's a bit too small ball for me, too cautious, too step-by-step. But then, taste is cultural. The Japanese game is reflective of their wa oriented culture. Not wrong, bad, right or good. Just different, and not the game I played growing up. And yes, they do bunt a lot with 1 out, sometimes 2 out. The annual high school tournament at Koshien is a a showcase for bunt baseball. But hey, in a hard fought game with two great teams, this can be just as exciting as slug-fest.
| Gurdeep Rivenvald III wrote: |
| Why is it when American fans cheer for their teams, they have great fans where Japanese fans cheer for their teams, it's "staged and predictable?" |
Because it is staged and predictable, and I'm not suggesting this is inherently wrong or bad. It's a known fact that professional cheerleaders are an important part of the fan culture in the stadium in Japan. It's a very organized part of the game. The cheers and songs are all exactly the same, and happen throughout a game like clockwork. There's a definite expected protocol when your team is batting, and one when your team defends. And again, my opinion is a cultural opinion. Obviously, this highly organized fan behavior in Japan is reflective of a group oriented culture. Far be it for me to say it's wrong or bad. I have no doubt that most Japanese fans who experience a game in the US find it all a bit too discordant, disorganized and a bit chaotic.
The best book on the subject is Robert Whiting's "You Gotta Have Wa" and I highly recommend this read. Even if you have no interest in baseball, it's a great study of the culture differences between Japan and the West. |
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Gurdeep Rivenvald III
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 27
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:48 am Post subject: |
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| User N. Ame wrote: |
| And yes, they do bunt a lot with 1 out, sometimes 2 out. |
This quote pretty much sums up your knowledge of baseball. Teams do not bunt with two outs. When you are bunting, you are sacrificing yourself to move the runner, essentially conceding an out. Here's an eyeopener for you...if you sacrifice with two outs, you will end the inning. This does not happen anywhere in organized baseball anywhere. Period.
Here's some more information for you to increase your knowledge of the game.
http://www.baseballnews.com/features/buntingtactics.htm |
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southofreality
Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 579
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:33 am Post subject: |
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Let's face it... Sports fans can be annoying wherever you are. If you compare an afternoon ballgame in Chicago to an evening ballgame in Tokyo, the Tokyo game is usually going to be much more exciting. The Chicago afternoon game usually has a pretty tame crowd. Watch a TV game on WGN sometime and you'll see that too many people in the stands are fat slobs, sprawled out, drinking beer and eating hot dogs. Not a terribly exciting image.
But, I do like going to evening games in the States, especially when two division rivals are going at it. If the game is close in the closing innings, you'll see some of the most amazing fan behavior: The crowd is lively, the music is rockin'... and then the home team pitcher gets ready to throw. It suddenly gets dead quiet. The pitch gets thrown... it's a strike! The crowd goes nuts for about 20 seconds, then it gets dead quiet again as he gets ready to wind up. I love that! For me, that's as good as it gets. |
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User N. Ame
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 222
Location: Kanto
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:39 am Post subject: |
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| Gurdeep Rivenvald III wrote: |
| User N. Ame wrote: |
| And yes, they do bunt a lot with 1 out, sometimes 2 out. |
This quote pretty much sums up your knowledge of baseball. Teams do not bunt with two outs. |
And this quote tells me you haven't watched a lot of Japanese baseball, especially the high school game. Although infrequent, the bunt with 2 outs happens. Yes, I'm as shocked as you are. But how and why the 2-out bunt happens is important to know. The 2-out bunt is sometimes attempted, obviously not as a sacfrafice, but as attempt to catch a deep infield off guard. I've seen quite a few 2-out drag bunts in Japan.
The bunt with 1 out is almost unheard of in the American game (except when a pitcher is doing it), but happens almost routinely in Japan.
I get the sense you haven't watched many Japanese games? I spent many many nights over a 4 year period watching pro and HS games in Japan. I was a part time coach for my chugakko's baseball club.
The fact is, the Japanese game is different, and they have an entirely different approach to hitting (and bunting). The all time sac-bunt leader in Japan stats is as important, if not more so, than any other hitting category.
When you get to Japan (if you get there), spend some time watching the HS tourney at Koshien, you'll see what I'm talking about. |
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User N. Ame
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 222
Location: Kanto
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:44 am Post subject: |
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| southofreality wrote: |
| But, I do like going to evening games in the States, especially when two division rivals are going at it. |
A series between Hanshin Tigers and Giants is as good a rivalry as they get in any sport. It's the Yankees-Red Sox equivalent.
I'm not suggesting for a second the Japanese game is worse, the fans worse. I'm simply saying I'm not Japanese when it comes to baseball. But the essence of the game knows no cultural barriers, and I love a good game where-ever it's being played. |
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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:03 am Post subject: |
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southofreality posted
| Quote: |
| Watch a TV game on WGN sometime and you'll see that too many people in the stands are fat slobs, sprawled out, drinking beer and eating hot dogs. Not a terribly exciting image. |
Hmm, this sounds like a biased comment. Baseball has these alternating exciting and calm moments, better portrayed in your later remarks.
User N. Ame posted
| Quote: |
| I'm not suggesting for a second the Japanese game is worse, the fans worse. I'm simply saying I'm not Japanese when it comes to baseball. But the essence of the game knows no cultural barriers, and I love a good game where-ever it's being played. |
I have the same opinion. I hope because I opined aganist the manner of cheering in Japan that people thought I disliked the game here. I would concur with NA that Japanese baseball is a little more predictable, and in that sense less exciting, but some things remain the same, like beer at the ballpark!
Note: In the one game in Japan that I attended, I saw a now mega-famous Japanese player hit a homerun at Tokyo Dome. Anyone care to guess who it was?
Last edited by gaijinalways on Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:37 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Gurdeep Rivenvald III
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 27
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:03 am Post subject: |
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There is less bunting in the past 10 years in MLB mainly due to moving the fences, steroids and an emphasis on baseball players getting stronger and stronger. However, bunting still happens regularly, both sacrificing and bunting for base hits.
Not only do the pitchers in the National League routinely bunt, but often in close games, especially when the lead off batter in the inning gets on base, many teams will sacrifice to move the runner into scoring position. Are you saying that this doesn't happen often?
There are several players in the majors that bunt for base hits. Ichiro does this for a few reasons. Firstly, there is a good chance that he can get a hit and get on base. Secondly, by showing that he will bunt from time to time, the infielders often have to move in on the corners. When they do move in, and Ichiro chooses not to bunt, it increases the chances of getting a hit because the margin for error and reaction time for the fielders has decreased.
You rarely see hitters in the meat of the lineup bunt in America, but it's the same in Japan.
The reason there are many bunts in Japanese high school baseball, especially in Koshien tournament is because the games are often tight, and one mistake can be the difference in the game. Moving players into scoring position by bunting is a very safe play. Most teams don't play for the big inning, as most high school players are not home run hitters. History as proven this, that teams that score first in Koshien often win.
The term they use in the major leagues is small ball. There are many teams that still play this way. Bunting, hit and runs, stealing bases are all part of this strategy. You won't see this as often in the American League because of the DH and the emphasis on relying on the home run, due to the hitter friendly ball parks.
Furthermore, if you watched the World Baseball Classic, would have seen that bunting played a part with many of the teams around the world, not just Japan. Hopefully this can correct your misconceptions about the subject. |
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southofreality
Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 579
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:18 am Post subject: |
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Gurdeep,
I'm glad you brought up the WBC. Ichiro played such a huge part, not only as a player, but as a leader. He fired that team up when it seemed like they were down and out. He called that huge victory against Korea. I got the feeling after watching the WBC that Ichiro is a leader off the field as well as on. Many Japanese people thought Ichiro didn't possess such strong leadership characteristics. |
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Gurdeep Rivenvald III
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 27
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:31 am Post subject: |
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| southofreality wrote: |
| I'm glad you brought up the WBC. Ichiro played such a huge part, not only as a player, but as a leader. He fired that team up when it seemed like they were down and out. He called that huge victory against Korea. I got the feeling after watching the WBC that Ichiro is a leader off the field as well as on. Many Japanese people thought Ichiro didn't possess such strong leadership characteristics. |
I think Japan was more of a team rather than just a bunch of highly talented individuals assembled together. After the garbage call against the United States, that basically was doomsday, before Mexico gave the Americans a taste of Mexican baseball. Ichiro showed how much he cared about the tournament, where one moment they were out of it, because of a b*llsh*t call, to the next where they were in it because of the unexpected win.
I think Ichiro offered a lot of stability for the team, like you said, with leadership and leading by example, willing the team to win. (great pitching didn't hurt either!) It was really a joy to watch, as in that game, the Japanese did a little bit of everything, home runs, hit and runs, stealing bases, bunts, sacrifice flies etc. Overall, just a really good game. |
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User N. Ame
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 222
Location: Kanto
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Gurdeep Rivenvald III wrote: |
| The reason there are many bunts in Japanese high school baseball, especially in Koshien tournament is because the games are often tight, and one mistake can be the difference in the game. |
Wrong. The reason there are so many bunts in the Japanese game is because it's the Japanese way. This point seems to have escaped you.
| Gurdeep Rivenvald III wrote: |
| Hopefully this can correct your misconceptions about the subject. |
Ah, the irony.... |
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User N. Ame
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 222
Location: Kanto
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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| southofreality wrote: |
Gurdeep,
I'm glad you brought up the WBC. Ichiro played such a huge part, not only as a player, but as a leader. He fired that team up when it seemed like they were down and out. He called that huge victory against Korea. I got the feeling after watching the WBC that Ichiro is a leader off the field as well as on. Many Japanese people thought Ichiro didn't possess such strong leadership characteristics. |
Let's add a little context to this. Prior to (or was it during?), Ichiro made a rather controversial public comment about how superior the Japanese game was to its Asian neighbours (I think he was refering to Korea or Taiwan). And then the unthinkable happened. Korea embarrassed Japan in the preliminaries, and did so rather convincingly. Ichiro lost major face as a result, and his following emotional outbursts on the field and prediction of victory seemed more an act of desperation, a bid to regain face. Lucky for him, it worked. Not diminishing his leadership role, just adding a bit of colour to it.
The WBC tells us little about who the best baseball nation is. Maybe after 10 or 20 WBCs we can talk. The real measuring stick is the yearly tour in October to Japan by MLB all-stars (used to be the WS champ), which started after the war. And the US rarely sent their best, rarely took these matches seriously, spent most of their time drinking and visiting the "turkish baths" - and still managed to win these events convincingly, consistently. I'll see if I can dig up the stats on these matches. |
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