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How long since the monthly basic increased?
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ironopolis

Joined: 01 Apr 2004
Posts: 379

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:34 am Post subject:

Jon Taylor wrote:

In my experience, the rises I gave out are realistic and reflect the rises that I was able to negotiate and indeed reflected the rises that many....no all of my friends were able to get. They work for different companies too.

So what exactly is your experience of eikaiwa in Japan?
I'm just wondering because from what I remember (and apologies if I've got this wrong) of your previous posts on here, it seemed that you came to Japan about 2 years ago to work for an eikaiwa and a couple of months ago said you were earning in excess of 400k working at one of Japan's top high schools. I've no reason to doubt what you've said on here, but this doesn't suggest someone who has enough experience of eikaiwa to judge how much of a pay rise teachers there should be getting after 2 or 3 years.

FWIW, about 5+ years ago, I'd have largely agreed with your comments about pay rises in Japan. But, I'd be very surprised to hear the same suggested as realistic nowadays and would be curious as to how someone was coming to that opinion - hence my above question.

edit - hadn't seen furious' post above, who's touched on a couple of similar points to me, but my question to Jon remains the same.

Jon Taylor

Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 238
Location: Tokyo

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:46 am Post subject:

markle wrote:

Jon Taylor wrote:

I merely suggest that if you are working in Japan and you are in your second or third year then if a pay rise hasen't come your way then you're obviously not worth your salt.

Either that or you must have very poor negotiation skills.

No matter how poor the economy or how poor your eikawa is doing, an annual pay rise is a must.

My answer was indeed a solid answer. In my experience, the rises I gave out are realistic and reflect the rises that I was able to negotiate and indeed reflected the rises that many....no all of my friends were able to get. They work for different companies too.

It staggers me that anyone would still be on the same salary after a couple of years in the same position. Their employer must be laughing all the way to the bank.

Well bully for you Jonny-boy but those pay rise are a result of your performance, negotiations, and high opinion of yourself, not a given as your hyperbole might suggest. What you have glossed over is what would happen if your school doesn't want to give you a pay rise. Walking out the door is a risky strategy in this economic environment and the opportunity costs may not make it worth it (unless you value ego boosting very highly as an economic cost)

If your school does not want to give you a pay rise then I would suggest looking for an alternative position. Why is this a risky strategy ?

Let's face it.......teaching jobs are ten a penny in Japan largely due to the subject to which we are discussing.

You wouldn't settle for a position back at home which didn't offer an annual pay rise so more fool you if you are willing to do it here.

wabisabi365

Joined: 04 Feb 2007
Posts: 111
Location: japan

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:54 am Post subject:

Quote:

You wouldn't settle for a position back at home which didn't offer an annual pay rise so more fool you if you are willing to do it here.

But how can a teacher apply what they expect in their home country to what they are getting here? I really don't understand this logic. Apples and oranges, isn't it? Or am I missing something?

ws365

Jon Taylor

Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 238
Location: Tokyo

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:54 am Post subject:

ironopolis wrote:

Jon Taylor wrote:

You are correct in your assumptions but I fail to see why after 2 or 3 years experience in Japan I am not able to judge how much of a pay rise one should get.

Since leaving school in 84, I have been working in different positions. In every one of those positions (including spells teaching in different Asian countries), I have secured an annual pay rise.

Why is this so difficult for so many of you to understand. Shocked

Jon Taylor

Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 238
Location: Tokyo

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:56 am Post subject:

wabisabi365 wrote:

Quote:

You wouldn't settle for a position back at home which didn't offer an annual pay rise so more fool you if you are willing to do it here.

But how can a teacher apply what they expect in their home country to what they are getting here? I really don't understand this logic. Apples and oranges, isn't it? Or am I missing something?

ws365

You most certainly are missing something. It's called the working world.

Every cultured position in every country offers wage rises.....usually annually.

Jon Taylor

Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 238
Location: Tokyo

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 3:02 am Post subject:

markle wrote:

Jon Taylor wrote:

Jon Taylor a tigerwood that can write?

I don't understand the above markle. Confused

Who or what is tigerwood ?

Please explain though Markle.....why is changing your job such a 'risky' strategy ?

wabisabi365

Joined: 04 Feb 2007
Posts: 111
Location: japan

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 3:11 am Post subject:

Quote:

Every cultured position in every country offers wage rises.....usually annually.

But... (again) the wage for many "cultured" positions has decreased in Japan. The cost for everyday items in Japan has decreased. The rent I am paying now is less than what I paid when I lived here the first time around, which is a few years back... I won't go into how many Wink

You are still insisting on comparing Japan to other countries when the situations are very much different. Did I mention apples and oranges?

ws365

Gurdeep Rivenvald III

Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 27

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 3:21 am Post subject:

furiousmilksheikali wrote:

Jon, the point is that the pay rises you are talking about don't apply to any more than a tiny percentage of schools. For you to claim that as the norm is a gross distortion of the truth. The reason why I said you were smug is because you say that you are on a great salary and can expect pay rises every year but being an insuffrable braggart you can't help pointing out that you work for a very exceptional school.

Quote:

I teach at a private high school which is considered to be one of the very top high schools in Japan and is a feeder school for Tokyo University.

I have to attend regular meetings as well as attend clubs.....the same as the native staff. You may be one of the teachers that "goes in, teaches and leaves" but my position is certainly nothing like that.

The Japanese staff are paid 420,00 yen per month.

How do I know this ?

During one of my many meetings with the principal we dicscussed salaries and he was the one that notified me of the salary of the newly qualified teachers. I was very surprised and wouldn't have believed it myself had it not been in black and white in front of me.

All of our salaries including my own are around the same 420,000 mark.

http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=51486&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Yet you had already given yourself away in an earlier thread in which you complained that English teachers weren't getting nearly enough money. When asking your students what the average wage in Japan is you posted this:

Quote:

I have asked my students about this and I get differing answers.

The popular answer seems to be 6,000,000 Yen per annum which translates to around 450,000 per month with 2 bonuses of around the same amount.

This seems very high and would make our EFL field a very below average salary.

I'm not sure why you would ask your high school students such questions and why you think they should know the answer but apparently after finding out that you were in a very low income bracket you decided to put those great negotiating skills to good use and now it is you who is laughing all the way to the bank. Either that or you're simply lying about one thing or another.

http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=49590&highlight=

It's interesting Jon Taylor responds to everyone except you...where there's smoke, there's fire.

ironopolis

Joined: 01 Apr 2004
Posts: 379

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 3:21 am Post subject:

Jon Taylor wrote:

ironopolis wrote:

Jon Taylor wrote:

You didn't really say what your experience of eikaiwa in Japan was - was that a difficult question to answer? It shouldn't be, if you've only been here a couple of years. And if my assumptions were correct, that would mean you've had an eikaiwa job then a high school one, which would mean you have little over a year's experience of eikaiwa.

I tend more than others towards giving people the benefit of any doubt, but I note you've made no attempt to explain the inconsistencies in your previous posts on this subject, which led a previous poster to suggest you might be lying.

markle

Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Posts: 1316
Location: Out of Japan

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 3:24 am Post subject:

Jon Taylor wrote:

Please explain though Markle.....why is changing your job such a 'risky' strategy ?

Sorry only had time for a quick off the cuff.

Well the risk invoves actually getting a job that is at least the same if not better than the one you are leaving (I did this last year and it worked out better but I count myself lucky) the risk increases as the better the job gets.
Let's say that you are making 270K/month now and the school declines an increase of 10K/mth. How likely are you that you will be able to get another job the same, given the average is 250K/mth?
You should also factor into your decision lag time with lost earnings, the cost of relocating, and other ancillary benefits. Add in a spouse and all of those costs go up exponentially, for a measly 10-20K/mth.

Here is some other views on the subject in a similar vein.
http://www.roadtosurfdom.com/2007/05/28/workchoicesworld-if-you-dont-like-it-you-can-always-leave/

Jon Taylor

Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 238
Location: Tokyo

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 3:31 am Post subject:

ironopolis wrote:

Jon Taylor wrote:

ironopolis wrote:

Jon Taylor wrote:

Inconsistencies ?!!??

Where.......let me know exactly what you mean and I will be more than happy to explain them all (if any)

Jon Taylor

Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 238
Location: Tokyo

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 3:34 am Post subject:

Gurdeep Rivenvald III wrote:

furiousmilksheikali wrote:

Quote:

It's interesting Jon Taylor responds to everyone except you...where there's smoke, there's fire.

Listen here Mr Gurdeep.........

I am more than happy to respond to all and if a question is specifically aimed at me than I will answer it.

Maybe this topic has been lost in translation with yourself as judging by your name, English is not your native language.. Laughing

Glenski

Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:07 am Post subject:

Quote:

If your school does not want to give you a pay rise then I would suggest looking for an alternative position. Why is this a risky strategy ?

Most eikaiwa teachers don't tend to stick around in the same workplace more than a year or two. NOVA teachers have a lifespan of 6-7 months, they say.

I understand what you say, Jon. If one has the determination to negotiate, and the skill to do so successfully (coupled with an employer willing to do so), then by all means go for it. I just think that most people get tired of their employer after a year or so, then move anyway. In my case, I stuck it out with an eikaiwa for 3.5 years. We had 3 full-timers there, one of which had been there for 2 3-year periods, and the other guy came 6 months before me and lasted 3 years. The reason the other two guys left before me was that the school, despite major funding from a newspaper company, was losing money. They cut the number of courses in half, and put us on half-year contracts at the end. When they finally said I would have to go part-time, I said goodbye. Left on pretty good terms, though.

But negotiating for a raise is iffy. If the employer is a tiny mom and pop shop, I'd say your odds are 50-50 at best, and more than likely 20-80 against you, just based on the economy. As mentioned by someone else, other eikaiwas consider raises based on trivial points of conduct and/or your sales potential (or even the number of students you had compared to the next guy). They often find ways to trim the fat, and salaries are the first way to go. Wanna complain? Goodbye, they say. There are 50 other guys knocking on the door for your job. You say that eikaiwa jobs are ten for a penny, but the market is saturated, and many eikaiwas offer very little to potential employees, even experienced ones.

The "risk" is pretty simple. Get the raise, or stick it out and see if your brash negotiating scheme gives the employer ideas about not renewing your visa or contract the next term, or you can leave and have to search for a new apartment (if you are not living in company housing). That search may entail a major relocation or not, but it may also be quite difficult if you live in a rural area that you otherwise enjoy.

So, yes, I agree in principle with your idea of trying to negotiate for a raise, but in reality, I think it is (sadly, to use a cliche) "case by case" in its success here. Good for you, though, in having success.

Gurdeep Rivenvald III

Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 27

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:40 am Post subject:

Jon Taylor wrote:

Maybe this topic has been lost in translation with yourself as judging by your name, English is not your native language.. Laughing

What an arrogant, obnoxious, racist thing to say! My name defines whether or not English is my native language? You should be embarrassed.

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