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rusmeister
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 867
Location: Russia
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 Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| dmb wrote: |
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| I like to sleep with the window open. |
When last home in Scotland in December I like to sleep with the window closed.... or should that be close  |
Good point dmb - that's what I missed - that the proper form should be opened - of course, usage has made 'open' standard here. |
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wildchild
Joined: 14 Nov 2005
Posts: 519
Location: Puebla 2009 - 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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Good point dmb - that's what I missed - that the proper form should be opened - of course, usage has made 'open' standard here.
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excuses, excuses; you can no longer be Alex Trebek!   |
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rusmeister
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 867
Location: Russia
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| wildchild wrote: |
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Good point dmb - that's what I missed - that the proper form should be opened - of course, usage has made 'open' standard here.
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excuses, excuses; you can no longer be Alex Trebek! |
Doh! I blew it!!! (Where's a forehead-slapping smilie when you want it?)
Always loved Wierd Al Yankovich's "I Lost on Jeopardy!"...  |
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furiousmilksheikali
Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 1660
Location: In a coffee shop, splitting a 30,000 yen tab with Sekiguchi.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| rusmeister wrote: |
| wildchild wrote: |
| Quote: |
Good point dmb - that's what I missed - that the proper form should be opened - of course, usage has made 'open' standard here.
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excuses, excuses; you can no longer be Alex Trebek! |
Doh! I blew it!!! (Where's a forehead-slapping smilie when you want it?)
Always loved Wierd Al Yankovich's "I Lost on Jeopardy!"... |
Well, perhaps that is why trying to substitute a sentence in one's own language may yield better results than trying to translate a sentence into other languages in order to identify the part of speech. |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:59 am Post subject: |
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| that's what I missed - that the proper form should be opened |
No it shouldn't. You're not interested in the action of opening the window at some stage in the past, but in it being open whilst you are sleeping. |
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rusmeister
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 867
Location: Russia
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:12 am Post subject: |
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| furiousmilksheikali wrote: |
| rusmeister wrote: |
| wildchild wrote: |
| Quote: |
Good point dmb - that's what I missed - that the proper form should be opened - of course, usage has made 'open' standard here.
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excuses, excuses; you can no longer be Alex Trebek! |
Doh! I blew it!!! (Where's a forehead-slapping smilie when you want it?)
Always loved Wierd Al Yankovich's "I Lost on Jeopardy!"... |
Well, perhaps that is why trying to substitute a sentence in one's own language may yield better results than trying to translate a sentence into other languages in order to identify the part of speech. |
Also true. But translations do help, too. |
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rusmeister
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 867
Location: Russia
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:18 am Post subject: |
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| Stephen Jones wrote: |
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| that's what I missed - that the proper form should be opened |
No it shouldn't. You're not interested in the action of opening the window at some stage in the past, but in it being open whilst you are sleeping. |
As fms said, substitution makes it clear. 'Opened' would not be the past simple (2nd form of the verb) but the 3rd form - the participle. Just substitute the word open for the words break or freeze (being irregular verbs, it makes it doubly clear), and you find you are forced to say "with the window broken/frozen". 'Open' in this case seems to be a modern convention formed and accepted from laziness*, and it's been around long enough that we accept it as the norm.
*(a great motivator for linguistic change) |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:49 am Post subject: |
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'Open' is an adjective. What is confusing you is that the adjectives 'closed', 'broken' and 'frozen' are the same as the past participle, but in 'open' that is not true.
You say I like to drink my tea piping hot
not *I like to drink my tea piping heated.
Here are a couple more examples of the adjective in postposition.
He likes his women to have their 'arse tight and their morals loose. |
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rusmeister
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 867
Location: Russia
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Stephen Jones wrote: |
'Open' is an adjective. What is confusing you is that the adjectives 'closed', 'broken' and 'frozen' are the same as the past participle, but in 'open' that is not true.
You say I like to drink my tea piping hot
not *I like to drink my tea piping heated.
Here are a couple more examples of the adjective in postposition.
He likes his women to have their 'arse tight and their morals loose. |
But I like my tea heated!  |
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wildchild
Joined: 14 Nov 2005
Posts: 519
Location: Puebla 2009 - 2010
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Open' in this case seems to be a modern convention formed and accepted from laziness* |
Are you being lazy every time you say "I'm"? |
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stillnosheep
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 2068
Location: eslcafe
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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No, you are using a contraction. However 'open' is not a contraction of 'opened' but an adjective, whereas 'opened' is the past participle of the verb 'to open'. In some cases the past aprticiple and adjective have the same form. In this case they do not, just as Stephen Jones has said.
What is so difficult about that? |
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wildchild
Joined: 14 Nov 2005
Posts: 519
Location: Puebla 2009 - 2010
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| yawn |
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stillnosheep
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 2068
Location: eslcafe
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Humblest apologies for providing your almighty twee-signatured highness with insufficient entertainment. |
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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Interesting analysis. I have yet to look at this in my grammar books (I'm abroad at the moment), but it is true, subsitution often does point up problems (an example pointed up by my master teacher in my TESl program) readily. |
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rusmeister
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 867
Location: Russia
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| Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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Humble pie! Yum, yum! (meant to indicate 'delicious')
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