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bradwelljackson
Joined: 29 Aug 2004
Posts: 75
Location: Shakhty, Russia
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 Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:48 am Post subject: The coming Olympics in Beijing - good or bad for teachers? |
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| How will next year's Olympics (I believe they start August 8th) affect us English teachers? Will there be more jobs or less? If there are more opportunities, when will be the best time to arrive in Beijing in order to take advantage of the market? |
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waxwing
Joined: 29 Jun 2003
Posts: 719
Location: China
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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My question is more "By what time do I have to leave to avoid the madness?" 
Sorry, don't mean to interrupt any serious answers! |
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blowinlicks
Joined: 27 May 2007
Posts: 16
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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| The Chinese are only interested (hence FTs included) in the people coming here for one reason - to make money off of you. Don't expect diddly in the way of jobs. Don't be naive. Watch how private cabs try to screw you....get out, as Waxwing has so eloquently suggested, before those huge Swedish guys start beating up people in the streets. |
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HunanForeignGuy
Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 989
Location: Shanghai, PRC
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:46 am Post subject: |
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In those schools that have overseas programs or in which students eventually study overseas, there should be little or no fallout from the games.
In those primary and secondary institutions that offer bilingual programs as a means of crashing the glass ceiling as we say in New York, then there should be little fallout with either.
In those universities that offer English-language training programs to future teachers, businessmen, etc., etc., there should be no little or no fallout.
The language mills will undoubtedly suffer as the requirement to learn English to meet the laowei on the street will decrease. I would venture to say that the heaviest fallout will be in those language mills that offer only in-house, as opposed to farmed-out, courses.
Yes, the market will be glutted -- particularly in Beijing. That is or has already occurred and wages in Beijing are actually starting to fall now. A professional educator expects a decent salary and a hippie trash will work for anything.
Next, China is still racing to become the world power and it is highly unlikely that the world will learn Chinese. As more than likely English will remain the lingua franca, at least for the next 50 years, then the demand in China will continue, but perhaps not at the neckbreaking present at present. |
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cj750s
Joined: 26 May 2007
Posts: 701
Location: Donghai Town, Beijng
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:21 am Post subject: |
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| A professional educator expects a decent salary and a hippie trash will work for anything. |
I have noticed an increase in the beret factor... |
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SnoopBot
Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 740
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| HunanForeignGuy wrote: |
In those schools that have overseas programs or in which students eventually study overseas, there should be little or no fallout from the games.
In those primary and secondary institutions that offer bilingual programs as a means of crashing the glass ceiling as we say in New York, then there should be little fallout with either.
In those universities that offer English-language training programs to future teachers, businessmen, etc., etc., there should be no little or no fallout.
The language mills will undoubtedly suffer as the requirement to learn English to meet the laowei on the street will decrease. I would venture to say that the heaviest fallout will be in those language mills that offer only in-house, as opposed to farmed-out, courses.
Yes, the market will be glutted -- particularly in Beijing. That is or has already occurred and wages in Beijing are actually starting to fall now. A professional educator expects a decent salary and a hippie trash will work for anything.
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HFG is correct, we tried to get a higher salary increase this year because our hours increased, the Chinese DOS supported us. However, the word came down from the top that they wouldn't give ANY of us an increase and stated that there are so many qualified applicants in the market right now that some offered to work for free to just get the housing.
What kind of dependable teachers are they? I don't know but feel once the Olympics are over they would do a runner. I also don't think they are interested in teaching , but more interested in going to the Olympics and using teaching to bypass paying for the hotel cost.
Many are flocking into Beijing for "the Big party" some are world backpackers and money-making groups looking for the visa and the free party housing.
China doesn't check on credentials or backgrounds. I was told these people willing to work for free (or reduced wages) are highly qualified. I helped the Chinese office staff go thru a stack of resume/CV's.
Many are NOT Native Speakers, but have an advanced degree, experience and certifications. I got the feeling most were fake or embellished credentials. But who will check them? You could have 5 backpacker types willing to work for free that claim to be Oxford University graduates. They could be all high school drop outs, potential dope dealers looking to make a buck peddling dope. Nobody would know.
The Chinese staff seemed not to care and were interested in the free part, some even offered to "PAY" for part of the cost. We are talking about 2007, it will get worse closer to the Olympic dates.
I feel unless you are making money off the Olympics, it will be a nightmare for the FT's either with large traffic Jams, crowded western food places, and a magnet that will attract every scam artist all over China.
Other than watching a few events I see no benefits here for the FT's. |
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william wallace
Joined: 14 May 2003
Posts: 2869
Location: in between
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| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 1:43 am Post subject: |
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| No effect whatsoever...they hired more FTs, but that was going on anyhow. |
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caius celestius
Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Posts: 89
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| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 2:12 am Post subject: |
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| More importantly, once the Olympiad is olver we will no longer be in demand. Why should anyone want to "study English" in future? |
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HunanForeignGuy
Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 989
Location: Shanghai, PRC
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| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 7:23 am Post subject: |
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| caius celestius wrote: |
| More importantly, once the Olympiad is olver we will no longer be in demand. Why should anyone want to "study English" in future? |
There were three-or-four Olympic games in Japan over a period of about 30 years, I think (Nagano at least twice).
It had no impact whatsoever on the ESL market in Japan.
In fact, the serious economic implosion of the Japanese economy had only a minor impact upon the Japanese ESL market; many of the more shaky language mills went out-of-business over night but others, like Nova, ECC, which were essentially born in the midst of the turmoil, have prospered. It is true that it is much harder to get a Japan teaching ESL from outside Japan than before -- but that being said, once you crack the nut, so to speak, the jobs are readily available.
The Olympic Games are a very, very, very small component of wh
at is taking place in China -- they are China's notice to the world, so to speak, of its achieved respectability, and its ascendancy in the world order -- that should be obvious to all even those on this board not schooled in economics. The People's Bank of China currently sits on liquid cash reserves of USD One Trillion, an amount never seen before in any other country. The underground storage vaults for this currency must go on-and-on in Beijing or wherever.
English is the language of international commerce at the moment; China has its heart set on leading the pack in international commerce; to do so, it needs to blend into the scope of things; English is but a small part of that.
Most of the students that I have taught eventually went to work in the private sector and use English on a near daily basis.
Look over your students in a serious light and you will see that very few are in this for tourism; most are in this to better themselves economically in the future and to climb the socioeconomic ladder.
The New York Times continues to write that the world has never seen before what is seeing here in China -- in the space of one generation, that is 20 years, China went from a near-destitute third-world nation to a rapidly-developing second-world and soon-to-be-first world nation. The world forgets that for most of the last millenium China was a major world trading power and if the British and the French had not played havoc with the introduction of opium and the subsequent opium wars and the evisceration of the Chinese social order, China would surely have acquired first world sometime in the early 1950's. It is largely owing to what colonial Britiain and France did here that China embarked on this somewhat nefarious revolutionary course. It has now returned to its historical roots.
And language acquisition is but a small part of that ascendancy.
In the end, the ESL market will hold. |
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7969
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5782
Location: Coastal Guangdong
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| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 7:50 am Post subject: |
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| HunanForeignGuy wrote: |
| The New York Times continues to write that the world has never seen before what is seeing here in China -- in the space of one generation, that is 20 years, China went from a near-destitute third-world nation to a rapidly-developing second-world and soon-to-be-first world nation. |
as a refresher, put into economic terms:
1. first world = developed market economy
2. second world = planned economy
3. third world = developing economy
these terms: 1st, 2nd and 3rd world are out.... now considered discriminatory by those politically correct folk around the world that get to decide which country fits into which slot.
the "second world" no longer exists. that was the former soviet bloc, (disintegrated in the late 1980s) and which china hadnt been a part of since the sino-soviet split in the late 1950s and early 1960s.
further, while there is no established definition of the requirements for developed (first world) country status, one better consider the following to answer the question with respect to china:
1. GDP;
2. human development index (HDI - how increased income is turned into education and health opportunities, which in turn lead to a higher level of human development);
3. quality of life; and
4. environment
i think the suggestion that china is a soon-to-be developed country is mistaken. first of all, how how soon is soon? the (still relatively small) chinese middle class is growing, the country's economy is growing quickly, and GDP is higher. but project ahead 50 years into the future. there will still be 600-800 million farmers/peasants living on a dollar or two per day who arent well-educated, who are not healthy, and who are living in a polluted environment where safety is not well-regulated. in short, based on these criteria, no serious economist can be predicting this change in china's status from developing to developed economy/country anytime soon.
to directly answer the original question: what effect will the olympics have on us?: my answer is this: the olympics are window dressing. once they're over, noone's going to remember them, the pollution in beijing will return, taxi drivers might just forget the english they learned for the games, there are still going to be lots of poor people in china, ESL teachers will still find jobs in china.... in other words - no change.
Note: for interests sake, according to the latest UN HDI rankings, china ranked 81/177 countries, between armenia and peru. a medium level of human development and a good indicator that china will not be joining the ranks of the rich countries anytime soon. |
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Cognition
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 62
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 5:08 am Post subject: |
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| HunanForeignGuy wrote: |
| The world forgets that for most of the last millenium China was a major world trading power and if the British and the French had not played havoc with the introduction of opium and the subsequent opium wars and the evisceration of the Chinese social order, China would surely have acquired first world sometime in the early 1950's. |
Yeah - nothing to do with the Chinese themselves; it was all the fault of outsiders. |
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caius celestius
Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Posts: 89
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 6:11 am Post subject: |
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I don't understand what China's situation has in common with Japan before the Tokyo Olympics.
What I most emphatically do see, feel and am told by Chinese themselves is that "knowing" (whatever that means, it definitely doesn't have to mean "master") English is a FACE thing with or without practical implications. Do the Chinese care whether their English is understood or whether they understand English-speaking outsiders? I don't think so!
Why do Chinese behave so stupidly towards foreigners, apeing foreign greetings and phrases such as "can I help you?" only to follow them up with "can you speak Chinese?"
English is not taken seriously here, full stop. What is taken seriously is the qualification that proclaims its bearer to "know English". Hardly any Chinese boss can assess the English communications skills of their job applicants. Hence you can see patheticgally under-achieving performers. Taxi drivers? If you find one in a thousand, you have hit upon an educational gold mine! Wait staff? Postal clerks? Bank tellers? Train ticket sellers?
Even tour guides sometimes have very mediocre English levels!
It's just fashion, and will remain a fsahion until the current hype is a thing of the past. After next year, no reason can be found for the entire nation to believe English is vitally important for their own advancement. Many temporary jobs created for the Olympics will be lost. |
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SnoopBot
Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 740
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 6:27 am Post subject: |
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| HunanForeignGuy wrote: |
[rld trading power and if the British and the French had not played havoc with the introduction of opium and the subsequent opium wars and the evisceration of the Chinese social order, China would surely have acquired first world sometime in the early 1950's. It is largely owing to what colonial Britiain and France did here that China embarked on this somewhat nefarious revolutionary course. It has now returned to its historical roots.
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I think the corruption of the dynasties were a bigger factor here.
Next corruption of the military rule 1910+
Japanese invasion-WW2
Civil War
Maoism and the CCP
I think these things played a bigger role in Chinese retardation of growth than the 1800's 2 Opium wars.
Before the last dynasty you had years of internal warlords and power struggles.
Of course the opium problems were acute, but more damage was done during the Cultural Revolution political purges and the rise of communism.
What caused China to fall behind the post WW2 boom was due to the Stalinist leanings then later the involvement in the Korean war /Cold War.
China was on it's own, the USSR turned on China directly after the Korean war when they failed to deliver the massive Soviet Aid package they promised to Mao if he provided the manpower in the Korean war by USSR proxy.
China was viewed as unreliable to the UN which supported South Korea's regime. The UN insured no AID went to rebuilding China. The Soviets gave no aid as promised.
Soon after the Korean war the Great Leap forward with failed policies and Mao's idea of spreading industries into the countryside to protect the structure of the military war machine from being an easy target of a Soviet nuclear attack.
Farmers were told to work in these factories, a serious drought happened around the same time leading to massive starvation.
The fallout of the failed policies created a riff in the party causing Mao to initiate the Cultural Revolution to insure he remained in power.
A whole generation was lost when the schools were closed and only Communist thinking was allowed.
Internet sources state this as the primary reason for China being a backward nation.
China's economic success is based on Cheap labor and high internal government spending.
Once wages increase, labor and pollution laws get passed. I feel China will hand over the torch as a major exporter to the next developing country like Africa.
Who knows how long it will take? The USA's prime was in the 40's-70's then it was Japan's turn, with Taiwan and Kong Kong to now China.
It's the capitalistic cycle, China must develop a strong Middle Class consumer market to be its primary economic source not exports that can be taxed or blocked in war or political crisis.
The problem with doing this is paying a real wage and allowing the currency to evaluate, if they do this they have a good chance on losing Foreign investments and a huge decrease in their the export markets.
Oh well, I don't get paid big bucks to worry about this, when, how and where in might happen. But I think the system is still fragile at this stage.
Who knows maybe in the future everyone will be learning Chinese as the next business language and not English. |
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WYSIWYG
Joined: 17 Oct 2004
Posts: 149
Location: It's good to be in my own little world. We all know each other here!
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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| SnoopBot wrote: |
Who knows maybe in the future everyone will be learning Chinese as the next business language |
Quite possible. A friend that teaches in a middle school in the US just told me that they dropped their japanese program and added a mandarin program instead. They have even hired 2 teachers from China to teach the classes. Maybe not so surprising if the school was in California, but it's in Michigan. |
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SnoopBot
Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 740
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 4:46 am Post subject: |
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| WYSIWYG wrote: |
| SnoopBot wrote: |
Who knows maybe in the future everyone will be learning Chinese as the next business language |
Quite possible. A friend that teaches in a middle school in the US just told me that they dropped their japanese program and added a mandarin program instead. They have even hired 2 teachers from China to teach the classes. Maybe not so surprising if the school was in California, but it's in Michigan. |
They are offering Chinese in the UK at a wide-scale level now too.
Can you ask your friend what qualifications the teachers must possess?
That is the 1000 dollar question often asked by the Chinese teachers who want to teach abroad.
I have not found any clear outlined certifications or required qualifications that is required yet for the Chinese language teachers.
Xie Xie. |
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