Job Discussion Forums

jotham · Joined: 05 Jul 2007 Posts: 77

I have a friend whose long-distance degree wasn't recognized by the MOE. Apparently, the MOE fears that competition could take away students from their universities. The WTO, which Taiwan joined in 2002, promotes free trade and seeks to eliminate trade barriers. They're working behind the scenes to break down proctectionism in E-education.
I asked my friend recently about his situation, and he emailed the following advice for anyone who might be having trouble getting their legitimate degree recognized (granted it's recognized in the U.S., U.K., and most of the world):

Serious_Fun · Joined: 28 Jun 2005 Posts: 1171 Location: terra incognita

I've always assumed, perhaps naively, that MOE's position was an opening wedge for some negotiation with other institutions/systems.

Distance learning is a part of the universe in the 3rd quarter of 2007...particularly among those of us who work full-time yet have a strong desire to improve themselves/ourselves.

Part of the joys that come with working in a developing nation? Wink

forest1979 · Joined: 10 Jun 2007 Posts: 507 Location: SE Asia

If this regulation negatively effects you, I
suggest you take the following actions: 1)Write
directly to the Education Minister and complain,
setting out your reasons why you think the regulation
is unfair. CC letter to your trade office. 2) Write to
your local Trade office and ask them to raise the
matter with the Taiwan government. 3) Apply for jobs
at universities anyway, and make a big stink if the
MOE does not approve your appointment; you have a much
stronger case with the school on your
side--face/guanxi etc. 4) Try semantics--try to
convince the MOE that your degree is not a
"correspondence" degree--it might be a face-saving way
out.

This has to be the most pointless, stupid, naive and laughable advice as to what to do given the MoE not recognizing distance learning degree. Do you really think MoE policy will change on the whim of a foreigner's letter dropping into the letterbox? Do you seriously believe you can change MoE opinion on this matter? Do you seriously believe applying to universities will allow you and your distance degree to get you a job? Do you similarly believe your trade office will campaign on your behalf at your perceived injustice of distance degrees not being recognized in Taiwan? If you answer "yes" to the above questions then wonder why you don't have a university job!! And who is this Scott character offering advice and hope to the unfortunate masses that MoE policy will change? I take it this person has inside information direct from the Minister of Ed, or is this person just full of uninformed conjecture? Is this person another sad example of an uninformed foreigner in Taiwan trying to make a name from himself by pretending to be an authority on all things educational? To be pragmatic until facts and not opinion, plus ridiculous advice, is presented it would be better for the likes of Scott to keep his feelings on the MoE to himself unless he will post government papers showing an imminent change in distance degree policy.

jotham · Joined: 05 Jul 2007 Posts: 77

forest1979 · Joined: 10 Jun 2007 Posts: 507 Location: SE Asia

--- I don't---not just one action itself---but perhaps the accumulative effect of actions and a confluence of situations could weigh in. I've tried communicating with the MOE myself on other matters. They act like divine royalty and the cream of the crop---which is what Confucianism encourages.

Divine royalty? Mate, civil society in Taiwan operates top-down. Anyone not at the top of the pile doesn't get listened to. One letter or 100 letters makes no difference.

--- They don't deign even to acknowlege a comment that might question their competence. But perhaps it depends a whole lot on what kind of person reads it first.

Politicians in Taiwan are no different from elsewhere in the world. Would your high level politicians at home acknowledge any letter/email you send them?

---What's your definition of what a trade office is and does? I doubt that they themselves campaign---but they can cooperate and bring a case to the WTO, who would be the campaigners.

Well, I don't define a trade office as a governmental organization that brings cases to the WTO about Taiwan education and people unable to get jobs at universities because of it.

You sound so garrulously fatalistic. Do you have a long-distance degree?

I am fatalistic? Realistic, yes. Do I have a distance degree? No. Why? Because from working in Taiwan I came very quickly to appreciate just how black and white MoE rules are on recognition of educational degrees. However, going back to my previous post, I am very interested as to how Scott can put forward the point that the MoE is going to change the policy on correspondence degrees. What evidence has he got to support this?

jotham · Joined: 05 Jul 2007 Posts: 77

Perhaps that post was a little strange outside its context. On another forum, I responded to a question concerning the same issue. I asked my friend to comment on his experience on that forum since I knew he was being affected. I pasted his comments on this forum as well, in case it might help someone else in similar straits.
http://forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtopic.php?p=756969#756969

forest1979 · Joined: 10 Jun 2007 Posts: 507 Location: SE Asia

One of the provisos of joining the WTO is that each member state, or new member, has to undergo some reforms. This is standard practice. As I understand it these changes take years and years to occur. For instance, China as part of signing to the WTO has to repeal the hukuo system of migrant registration. Obviously, given the line of thinking put forward - if a country joined the WTO some years ago then it's about time they reformed - then obviously change will undergo this transition soon. In reality, don't hold your breath!

I am very pleased to hear that US politicians so earnestly read letters sent to them. However, equating the Dubai port deal with distance learning degrees in Taiwan is however like comparing chalk with cheese. But, don't let any argument of distance degrees and their value to national security in Taiwan stop you from writing to the Taiwan government and maybe making a case that it will help stop any potential Chinese military threat.

Anyhow, going back to my original posting is there any evident from Scott of impending MoE changes? How come he is privy to such information, or is this yet another case of someone trying to know it all. Is there any facts you could forward via said expert Scott?

forest1979 · Joined: 10 Jun 2007 Posts: 507 Location: SE Asia

One of the provisos of joining the WTO is that each member state, or new member, has to undergo some reforms. This is standard practice. As I understand it these changes take years and years to occur. For instance, China as part of signing to the WTO has to repeal the hukuo system of migrant registration. Obviously, given the line of thinking put forward - if a country joined the WTO some years ago then it's about time they reformed - then obviously China or any other member of the WTO will undergo its promised transition soon. In reality, don't hold your breath! As you said protectionism reigns in Taiwan plus there's the little issue of the complexity of its bureaucracy. To do anything politically in Taiwan means going through 1001 political debates.

I am very pleased to hear that US politicians so earnestly read letters sent to them. However, equating the Dubai port deal with distance learning degrees in Taiwan is however like comparing chalk with cheese. But, don't let any argument of distance degrees and their value to national security in Taiwan stop you from writing to the Taiwan government and maybe making a case that it will help stop any potential Chinese military threat.

Anyhow, going back to my original posting is there any evidence from Scott of impending MoE changes? How come he is privy to such information, has he taken part in Executive Yuan debates or is this yet another case of someone trying to know it all, but doesn't in fact. Is there any facts you could forward via said expert Scott?

clark.w.griswald · Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 2056

Forest no offence but if you knew anything about universities as far as foreign instructors in Taiwan then you wouldn't need to ask who Scott is - you would know!

Scott Sommers has an excellent knowledge of the workings of universities in Taiwan as far as foreign teachers and policy. I don't believe that he is self-appointed but in fact has become a resource that people choose to turn to on the subject as he has a proven knowledge in that area. If you knew anything about Scott then you would know that your earlier derogatory comments about him were uncalled for.

OP I think that the course of action you outlined in your first post is a good one. Some people choose to grumble and complain but don't do anything about it. Others stand up and make their complaints known. Obviously if the government is not aware of a problem then there will be no action to change it and unless the foreigners who are affected make it clear that there is a problem then no one will.

SeriousFun you are correct that the government can and does add schools to their approved list if a foreign teacher brings forward a just case and the university back home complies with the preparation of required documentation. It is not a particularly difficult process and I am aware of at least one case where an individual foreign teacher had her university added to the list so that she could be legally employed here. It is clear that had she taken the advice given by some that there is no point challenging things as everything is 'top down' that her institution probably still woudln't be listed to this day Very Happy

As far as the distance education situation - my understanding is that as long as the institution is on the governments list of approved institutions that it would not matter if you were present in class or did a distance course. It would only become a problem if the school that you did a distance course at (or attended classes in) was not listed on the approved list. Is that the experience that you have had OP?

forest1979 · Joined: 10 Jun 2007 Posts: 507 Location: SE Asia

Clark - Yes, I am aware of who Scott Sommers and is what his blog is about. However, regardless of whether it is Scott Sommers or the affable Michael Turton - a true fountain of factual information on Taiwanese education and society - or anyone else, proof is needed to back up such statements on the MoE as 'Scott' suggsted in this post. Without evidence anyone can make brash statements about MoE policy and its probable future directions but as I stated before expecting governments to shift policies within just a few years of joining the WTO is tenuous at best.

As for being derogatory, how was I? I think Scott Sommers, from what I have seen at his blog, is big enough to stand by his own comments and at the same time eloquently pass comment on what he feels about, for instance, MoE, and why he maybe disagrees with others POV on this matter. I didn't criticise him - I criticised the 'Scott' character, who for all intents and pusposes could be anyone. As you seemed to have missed, I want evidence of any possible MoE change from the 'Scott' quoted in the first posting to this thread, and to be frank I think the WTO membership argument doesn't hold water. Change will occur but when? Next month? Next year? Next decade? Accordingly, as I would prefer to make comment on MoE facts and not merely a POV I would be grateful if Scott Sommers, or for that matter, anyone else provide concrete facts on the purpose, principles, policy and practice of the MoE towards distance degrees and any shifts it is presently going through. But, to be blunt, there is no transition as the MoE rules on distance degrees now is the same as 6-7 years ago, and will be the same in the foreseeable future at least.

To end, it seems Clark your teacher friend obviously has a wonderful means of negating MoE rules thanks to her letter. Obviously we should all do this next time we encounter any social problem in Taiwan. Given your friends situation can you clarify for all readers of this post the MoE rule on distance degrees, and then maybe persons such as Michael Turton or Scott Sommers can add their much valued and trusted perspectives.

jotham · Joined: 05 Jul 2007 Posts: 77

I can't say I have the proof. I have looked at WTO minutes of discussions, so I know it's being bandied about. But why are you really interested in proof and this issue if it doesn't directly affect you? It doesn't affect me either, but if it did, I'm the kind of person that would take action if I were guided. And such knowledge and advice would be just the thing to invigorate me.

forest1979 · Joined: 10 Jun 2007 Posts: 507 Location: SE Asia

jotham - Thanks for your comments. Don't think I'm asking you per se for proof. In fact it should be Scott who is putting forward the mechanics to support his claim. As for me, I am simply reiterating the need for proof for without any kind of means to back up a comment of the kind in the first post to this thread it merely makes the original comment just someone's POV, and as we all known POVs can often be wrong and, in effect, just be grounded on heresay. I think the need to back up the comment is so that anyone new to Taiwan, and so not at all informed of how things operates there, doesn't get the wrong idea, the wrong end of the stick about distance degrees and their worth. Evidence gives the original posting a substantive meaning. It changes it from POV to fact.

clark.w.griswald · Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 2056

I am not going to get into the debate about the WTO. Personally I don't think that this has much to do with what the MOE does or doesn't do in regards to this issue.

forest1979 · Joined: 10 Jun 2007 Posts: 507 Location: SE Asia

Clark - You're very touchy today.

I'll answer some of your points.

Let's get something straight. No, I did not do a google search to find out who Scott Sommers is. I know of Scott Sommers through his blog, having read and indeed commented there in the past, and secondly I know of him through having met him on more than one occassion. I also know very well colleagues of his who work with him too at his university in Taipei (Ming Chuan University). As you will know from your personal knowledge of him, he is a very approachable bloke and easy to chat with things about. As you put it, don't let the facts get in the way of a story, especially your story.

Why did I originally ask who 'Scott' is? Well, did the OP put the name Sommers after the name Scott? Maybe I misread but just putting a single name could have easily have been some bloke, a self-procalimed expert, in a bar called Scott, as opposed to Scott Sommers himself. However, as you will know, Scott Sommers is known to frequent watering holes given his sports associations with local rugby and martial arts teams, so maybe my original assumption had a degree of truth to it. However, knowing Scott, he'll see the humor in that comment!

Asking for evidence? Why not? The OP put forward a comment and as someone interested in the subject, having worked for many years in a local uni and knowing of the present rule and its inflexible nature, I was interested into how they knew of any likely transition in distance degree ruling. Whether someone claimed/knows/suggests to know of change or not, I was interested in what the OP put online. Hence my contributions to this thread and my asking for something more than heresay!

Yes, you are right in saying that I have commented upon the design of civic society in Taiwan. However, can you please enlighten me as to where I have wrote that this structure was set in concrete and the flow of information never goes from bottom to top? Since when I have written "changes are only possible by reaching the top of the chain"?

I am though very happy that the girl who you know of got her problem resolved. But, can I ask how long it took to sort out her predicament? What did her employers do to shift MoE opinion? Guanxi?

Ending this post, why would I say that you're an expert on distance degrees? To be honest given the nature of what you write there's many people in front of you in the queue if I were looking for advice on distance degrees. In fact, I could look up my old crony Scott Sommers as he has written about it for the last 2-3 years at least, and as you so rightly stated he has done a lot more than me for the good of foreign teachers in Taiwan. But yet again I'm not making, and have never made, such a claim, and neither has Scott. He writes because as you know he likes to write. Doesn't he teach writing, btw?

jotham · Joined: 05 Jul 2007 Posts: 77

Well, evidence or not, I think the most important factor is being overlooked: Taiwan is knowingly violating WTO rules. In my eyes, that's justification enough for the recommended actions, since the pressure of the international community is behind you. That should render your actions fruitful.

By the way, what is OP?