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Henry_Cowell
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley
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 Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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| RingofFire wrote: |
| Are they, in fact, interchangeable? |
The OP has still not told us which of the two (CELTA or MA) she/he is currently completing -- and her/his reasons for choosing it without first knowing the difference. |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Henry_Cowell wrote: |
| RingofFire wrote: |
| Are they, in fact, interchangeable? |
The OP has still not told us which of the two (CELTA or MA) she/he is currently completing -- and her/his reasons for choosing it without first knowing the difference. |
I think we can assume it's the CELTA if they're even asking the question.
CELTA is a great way to start an ELT career, but it is by no means the only way, or the only course available.
I have come across teachers with Masters degrees AND PGCE's AND Level 4 Certificates in Education, who have encountered prospective employers that have said they need to go and get a CELTA or DELTA.
This is absolutely not the case as a PGCE in TEFL or ESOL not only has equivalence with the DELTA in terms of curriculum, but surpasses it in many ways regarding classroom management and student welfare.
The British Council which often accredits these private language schools recognises this but the news often has not filtered down to the schools management.
That is the most generous excuse I can think of, although if you were being cynical you could say that if private school managers were to admit that the courses they were offering were not the be all and end all in language teaching they may well lose a significant revenue source.
They would much rather see their prospective teachers pay them thousands of pounds to do a CELTA, then a DELTA, then a DELTA extension module before they can teach, rather than to accept the PGCE.
Mind you, if you have the PGCE why bother applying to private language schools when you can earn double the salary at a state school or college with a pension and paid holidays?
I believe that the British Council are clarifying the position in terms of the interchangeability of qualifications. Often you will hear, "Oh, your qualification says ESOL and we teach EFL." or "The DELTA is for EFL not ESOL."
People saying these things are morons!
EFL/ESL/ESOL/EAP/ESP and any other permutations you can think of all require different content sure, but the different methodologies and skills at the finger-tips of a qualified and experienced teacher in either EFL or ESOL can accommodate these.
The fact is that most of the private schools that make all this fuss are usually the lowest paying and most poorly managed who will put profit before good practice.
If anyone does come across employers that refuse to accept their government endorsed teaching credentials then you would do well to point out the course details and teaching observations that they've had.
Best thing to do is download this information sheet which gives broad guidelines (although not definitive) on what you are most likely able to do with different qualifications. Print it out and wave it in the face of anyone that doesn't know what they're talking about!!
http://www.britishcouncil.org/learning-infosheets-english-teaching.pdf
Anyway, not much of this applies to Japan so I'll shut up now 
Last edited by womblingfree on Tue Aug 07, 2007 12:27 am; edited 1 time in total |
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slodziak
Joined: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 143
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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That is a great link - I haven't seen the information put so clearly before.
womblingfree, I admire your knowledge on these matters - you seem to know more than most and impart what you know in a clear, helpful and non-condescending way. Others should learn from your example! |
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RingofFire
Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Posts: 43
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Henry_Cowell wrote: |
| RingofFire wrote: |
| Are they, in fact, interchangeable? |
The OP has still not told us which of the two (CELTA or MA) she/he is currently completing -- and her/his reasons for choosing it without first knowing the difference. |
You know what? Just for being mean twice in one thread, I just won't reply to you anymore after this one. So eat it. 
Everyone else, on the other hand, has been very helpful, answering much of what I wanted to know. I was never interested in finding out what I would learn under each program, because I have a basic idea of the content of each after asking friends and co-workers and the like. What I was always interested in was how each qualification would be received by various employers (conversation school, junior high school and high school, university), and what people who have them did with their qualifications.
womblingfree and Sherri, your insight is much appreciated. Thanks! |
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Henry_Cowell
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley
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| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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| So do you think want to pursue a master's degree after receiving the CELTA? |
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Vince
Joined: 05 May 2003
Posts: 559
Location: U.S.
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| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 4:42 am Post subject: |
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| If your goal is to teach at a university, why not spend your time and money on the more relevant one, the MA? In Japan, an MA will get you into any position a CELTA will, but not the other way around. |
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alexcase
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 215
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:37 am Post subject: CELTA or MA |
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I think doing an MA before you have any teaching experience could possibly ruin your practical teaching skills for life (depending on your personality etc.). There is a danger that you will analyse too much before you do anything in the classroom and never pick up teaching as a skill rather than as applied knowledge. How many textbooks do you want to read before you get on a bike, or start swimming or SCUBA diving?
I say four week certificate (e.g. CELTA), then at least 2 or 3 years' experience before you do a Diploma (e.g. DELTA) or Masters. Best of all in terms of developing practical classroom teaching skills, assuming you have all the time in the world.
CELTA, then three years teaching, then DELTA, then two or three years teaching-, then MA that gives you credit for DELTA
PGCE in language teaching is also a good start point, but any other PGCE, especially Primary, needs to be followed by a CELTA or equivalent before you start teaching adults. |
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Vince
Joined: 05 May 2003
Posts: 559
Location: U.S.
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| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| RingofFire wrote: |
| I've been lurking for a few years ever since I started teaching English... |
He has significant experience to bring to an MA program. |
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alexcase
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 215
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:15 pm Post subject: CELTA or MA |
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| Sorry, Vince, had missed that bit. In which case my point about MA with no experience does not apply in this case. Just something I had to get off my chest, I guess.... Rant over! |
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stillnosheep
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 2068
Location: eslcafe
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| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 12:30 am Post subject: |
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Celta: 4 weeks full time.
MA: 1 yr minimum.
Equivalent?? |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 4:07 am Post subject: Re: CELTA or MA |
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| alexcase wrote: |
| I think doing an MA before you have any teaching experience could possibly ruin your practical teaching skills for life |
Most ELT or TEFL MA courses wont accept you unless you have at least 3 years teaching experience.
Applied Linguistics is a different matter as there are other areas you could go into outside of teaching if you had an MA such as research or lecturing in discourse analysis, sociolinguistics, psycholinguistics, or any other branch.
If someone is planning a lifetimes career in teaching I would recommend them 100% to do a government endorsed teaching diploma instead of going the CELTA/DELTA route. These qualifications do not confer qualified teacher status and you will probably end up having to do the government licence anyway if you want to teach in public high schools or colleges.
Also you can often get funding and bursaries to become a qualified teacher, especially in subjects where there's a shortage. Find out the requirements for the sector you want to work in before doing any courses.
Nothing worse than spending thousands of dollars and months/years doing a course only to find out you needn't have bothered and now have to do something else. |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 4:11 am Post subject: |
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| stillnosheep wrote: |
Celta: 4 weeks full time.
MA: 1 yr minimum.
Equivalent?? |
Exactly!
CELTA is a pre-service course in communicative teaching techniques, a Masters is a rigorous academic course for people mid-career.
| alexcase wrote: |
| PGCE in language teaching is also a good start point, but any other PGCE, especially Primary, needs to be followed by a CELTA or equivalent before you start teaching adults. |
There are PGCE's specifically for the adult sector. If you have a PGCE in ESOL or EFL there's really no reason to do a CELTA as the qualification you hold is already at diploma level and equivalent to the DELTA. Better in fact as it encompasses a broader spectrum of student needs and has a higher standard of teaching practice. |
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alexcase
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 215
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:01 am Post subject: |
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Someone has told me there are very few or no PGCEs in EFL (rather than ESOL) anymore- hardly surprising as who would fund you knowing that you were likely to run off abroad after your one year to get QTS
This is way back in the thread, but the British Council does not accredit any schools outside the UK- mainly because they would then be competing with a school they had accredited, I guess. |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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| alexcase wrote: |
| Someone has told me there are very few or no PGCEs in EFL (rather than ESOL) anymore- hardly surprising as who would fund you knowing that you were likely to run off abroad after your one year to get QTS. |
PGCE's in ESOL and EFL were reintroduced a few years ago and are given a full bursary by the government.
Of all the ESOL teachers I know very few are going to run off abroad as most of them are from 'abroad' in the first place. Those that aren't have already done the round the world thing and did a PGCE to be guaranteed decent employment in the UK.
From 2010 you will be unable to work in the public sector without a PGCE or equivalent PLUS a Level 4 certificate in your subject specialism. |
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alexcase
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 215
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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A little bit off topic but:
So, in the UK does a PGCE ESOL teach immigrants and a PGCE EFL teach foreign students (maybe in a different class in the same further education college??) If so, how do they decide which one is which? |
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