Job Discussion Forums

[cafebleu]

Of course it is!

I just think the point of nomadder and others is that if you are used to societies that don't restrict modes of social interaction so much, prioritise appearances over substance, and officially continually remind those who come from outside that they are forever outsiders, then Japan can wear you down.

The Japanese also apply some aspects of this to themselves. Forever worrying about sempai and kohai, about handing money correctly but pushing others aside at train stations when they were not lined up before, etc.

I found some smaller things wearing me down in the end. I grew to be peeved by some Japanese I knew obsessing about how 'unclean' gaijin are because we usually wear shoes inside our native habitats and completely disregarding the fact that tatami floors are not conducive to strong shoes in the first place and even preceding that - most Japanese were too poor to wear anything but flimsy slippers that go well with tatami matting.

I don't think that reflects badly on me - and my friends in London who come from every racial-ethnic background imaginable would feel the same way in Japan.

[markle]

bleu,
Well there are so many ways I could respond and on so many fronts that well it's boring. You have the blinkers on so tightly, your antipathy to Japanese society so ingrained that I really have to remind myself that there is little point arguing with you.

I do give you credit for leaving after what was apparently a traumatic experience for you. Unfortunately you have deluded yourself that you are open minded and tolerant that you fail to realise how intolerant you are. You think that simply coming from a multi-racial/ multi cultural background you are incapable of the chauvanism that is characteristic of racism. Sadly this not true.

Esentially we would probably agree with what the flaws are with Japanese society, it's just that I recognise that the same flaw, to a lesser or greater extent, exist in my own country.

[cafebleu]

And there by your own hand (again) you have demonstrated why you have been the target of trolls because your continual banging your head on the brick wall of others' reasonable posts is your only response, apparently.

I don't think there would be one poster on this forum who doesn't understand and see the flaws in their own culture/society/country. The issue at stake on this thread and on many discussions on the eslcafe is to do with exactly what kind of flaws we can all endure for a certain period of time.

I lived in Australia for a while (your country perhaps?) and I found the flaws of that society far easier to get accustomed to than those in Japan. It's personal preference but then again, I am not paying little or no tax in Japan as you so proudly proclaimed on a website devoted to expat living.

I understand the joy you take in living that kind of life in Japan but a lot of your hostility to me and others in our decision to leave Japan and reasons for doing so, seems to revolve around the fact that you have found somewhere in the world you can pay little to no tax and make a living.

Some of us can make a living in many other places which is why leaving Japan is an option.

[Vince]

I'm not very social and like my space, so I liked being in a society where people are generally cordial and careful to not intrude. But I did value my handful of friends, and loneliness hit hard when they moved on. They're all over the world now, and most of them want to return to Japan indefinitely. For them and me, it's just a matter of lining ourselves up for a more secure existence.

[markle]

God I know I'm going to regret this.

[nomadder]

#1 Reason-fear of becoming one of "those"-ahem-so entrenched in denial that they lash out at anyone who speaks of issues they refuse to face because they can't stand the thought of going home.

The only bashing going on around here is you M against everyone else. Your type does well abroad since most of the locals can't understand you completely or they willingly ignore you.

Japan has some very unique characteristics that make it very difficult in many ways for gaijin and yet very good in some ways. Good place to hide out for a few years and make some money though I would really be worried about future financial security there.

I can speak to it being Japan that caused the difficulties because I, unlike you, left and can see the differences. There are many things I can do, be and enjoy now that I couldn't in Japan, even if I was highly proficient in the language.

Home is home and though it can be difficult at first, I'm so glad I stayed and faced up to the things that made me leave in the first place. I've learned a lot. Hiding out abroad too long can lead to a lack of development for some and as said above-a lot of denial not to mention lack of perspective. Kind of like "Stockholm Syndrome".

[6810]

Not that I am particularly interested in the "debate" as it is...

But some of "us" aren't actually "hiding out" in Japan. Some of us are building lives, or have built lives and see ourselves as a part of, however incompletely of Japanese society with communities of friends, family and supporters.

[markle]

Oh no 6810, you're in 'denial'.

nomadder, I've apologised to you for my beligerence. I'm heading home in a year or so and I look forward to regaining some 'perspective'.

[king kakipi]

Markle, mate,.....

[king kakipi]

Markle:-
Woops, and don't you reckon the wording of your subject kind of invites responses from those no longer there (here)................
Strewth!

[markle]

Um I'm not sure how you got that idea, since I wounldn't charactererise your posts as bewailing the shortcomings of Japan etc. And as you have pointed out, you and posters like Sherri have a vested interest in Japan and what goes on here. I was much more referring to those that have little or no attachment to Japan, have left for good and only ever refer to the place according to their own negative experiences. That's not to say that their experiences or points of view are not valid it's just that after a time it turns into a bit of browbeating of those of us that see the positive aspects of the country.

[nomadder]

If people leave a place it is usually because of negative things. If you wanted to know what people liked despite leaving you should have worded it differently.

There are things I liked but as time goes by I realize I could probably never live there again. There are a lot of things I couldn't get used to doing without/putting up with again. You realize how you had to go around with blinders on in some respects.

Good luck on your eventual return home.

[Sherri]

Like you said Markle, I do have a connection with Japan now that will be with me for the rest of my life! A husband, 2 kids, family members, property and some really great friends all connect me to Japan. Even here in the US, I use Japanese everyday, even if just a word or two, I work with 2 Japanese nationals, almost all of the people I work with have lived in Japan at one time or another and 90% of our students come from Japan. I do see many positive aspects of Japan and I had a wonderful time there. I have also been living outside the US for almost 25 years--that is almost my entire adult life.

BUT Japan was more difficult (for me) than other countries. The language isolated me. Even after learning a bit, the written barrier was so great. At least in say Germany, even if I didn't know the word, I could still read it and figure it out--it takes a long time before you can do that in Japan, but I could do that on day one in Germany.

I looked different and the staring got me down. The constant interest in what I was doing whereever I went--and I lived in Tokyo. I stood out and when I had 2 young children, I stood out even more. I was the target of unwanted advice and scrutiny by neighbours. There are so many reasons I needed to leave, but this was a big part. I remember the first time I went into a grocery store here in Hawaii as a family, no one stared at us, no one even glanced at us. The relief was enormous. I left at the right time. I still appreciate Japan and left before appreciation turned to paranoia or hate.

[markle]

Again I feel there is a line between recognising and pointing out negative aspects of Japan and its society and straight up stereotyping and J-bashing. A line, Sherri you really have never been near.