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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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 Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 1:10 am Post subject: |
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It�s good to see that the point seems to be getting across despite vikuk�s resistance to any opinion that conflicts with his own. There are different programs that send teachers out to different schools, and there are advantages and disadvantages from individual standpoints. Some of the programs are better than others and research will help sort the wheat from the chaff. The individual needs to determine whether the deal is suited his or her individual needs. For me it worked well both on educational and personal levels.
| arioch36 wrote: |
| In other posts I feel as I remember him saying how important it is we keep to the law and our promises. Too lazy to look up, so I deserve razzing if I am wrong. Now he is saying as this is a fine thing to do. To me this is characteristic of a laowai turned recruiter, all too often. Things a person would recommend against become okay once the laowai gets involved in the other side of the business. |
You didn�t ask, but you did insinuate, so I will answer, no I am not a recruiter. So you are incorrect on that point. You are correct however that I am a staunch supporter of working legally in China as it is clear to me from my many years here that this is the best way to help protect yourself. I doubt that anyone can logically argue this not to be the case. Having said that I am realistic enough to know that some foreign teachers are going to continue to work illegally no matter what I or anyone else says and this is why giving comment about that sort of work is still valid in my opinion. Nowhere in my posts do I suggest that it is better than working legally so my comments here are not contradictory to my earlier posts.
In this thread I specifically stated that my comments would �put the legal arguments aside� as I wanted to present my view specifically related to the OP�s question regarding whether or not working for one company in different places is something that should be avoided. As per my answer it is clear to me that there are a lot of upsides to the experience that need to be balanced with the downsides and that the equation and therefore answer will be different for everyone. From my perspective though it is worth looking into for those who are not concerned about the legal side of things.
| arioch36 wrote: |
| I looked at his web-site, I couldn't believe the ridiculous number of hours he considers normal. I would hope the laowai would be considering trying to make standards better, rather then promote bad standards to get more laowai to accept them. |
I am not sure what this is in reference to but feel free to explain.
| arioch36 wrote: |
| No, hopefully this is not bash Clark, who I have never interacted with before. But I have been here a while, and I have seen laowai recruiters do this. Sorry, but I feel I have the experience that I can openly state this problem |
I don�t take it as a �bash�. Your opinions are fair and you have made it clear that your opinions are made based upon supposition rather than fact. The fact is however that I am not a recruiter and I think that if you look at that site more clearly you will see that. It would seem to me that being involved with a site that gives users the ability to make direct contact with schools and recruiters would not be the best business decision for a recruiter. Aside from this is the fact that there is no mention on that site of how users can contact us for recruitment help and the simple reason for that is that we are not recruiters we are teachers who maintain a resource of information for other teachers!
| HunanForeignGuy wrote: |
| Thank you...my sentiments exactly...this is one poster who never, ever, ever, ever, ever has contributed anything of substance to this Board and confines himself or herself or itself to attempting to ridicule, humiliate, denigrate, etc., etc., those posters, for example, you, among others, and many, many others, who make serious contributions to this Board. |
Add to this his new spin of suggesting that only people with actual experiences need offer opinions, seemingly blissfully unaware that he is �breaking his own rules� by participating in threads which he clearly has no experiences of his own. Quite comical really!
| vikuk wrote: |
| well they do say silences can speak a thousand words |
Who says this? I have heard of �pictures being worth a thousand words� but to suggest that silence speaks a thousand words is just illogical. The silence that you refer to is just everyone�s way of showing that they have no interest in your badgering and not, as you imply, evidence of you somehow being correct. |
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vikuk
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 2:01 am Post subject: |
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Clark writes -
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| Some of the programs are better than others and research will help sort the wheat from the chaff. |
If this is the case I'd love to find a "program" that made the concept of being farmed out such an attractive venture as in another of Clark's quotes -
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| Travelling to different locations and sometimes different cities, being put up in hotels, wined and dined, and meeting people you would not otherwise meet are all bonuses on top of the teaching |
Clark writes -
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| Add to this his new spin of suggesting that only people with actual experiences need offer opinions, seemingly blissfully unaware that he is �breaking his own rules� by participating in threads which he clearly has no experiences of his own. Quite comical really! |
I have actually had three months experience of being farmed out in my first China job during the year of 2004. And this together with rest of my first-hand China experience leads me to come to this conclusiuon with regard to the typical farming-out process -
The most common form of farming-out is when so-called training companies (the mills) who have the right to hire FT's - hire these teachers out to schools (usually kindy to middle school) that don't. From these forums we've even read of cases of the major mills (certain branches of EF for example) carrying out this dubious practice!!!!!!!
In these circumstances - being put up in plush hotels, and being wined and dined by clients - is often replaced by the grind of travel and the usual Chinese flare for bad-organisation.
Obviously for Clark to be so authoritative on this subject he also has first hand experience of being farmed out (or dare I say it - involved with getting FT's farmed-out) - and I�m sure now he's going to tell us about it, and how it entails all that wining and dining in plush hotels - or are we going to once again enjoy the comedy of "first-hand info" silence 
By the way Clark glad to see you also feel much of farming-out to be an illegal activity (first time I�ve ever seen you condone one though) � I do hope upchuckles has a go at you. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:21 am Post subject: |
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| vikuk wrote: |
| I have actually had three months experience of being farmed out in my first China job during the year of 2004. |
I was not actually referring to this thread but as you have brought up your experiences here let me ask you this.
I assume that in that three month period you had experience with one program that sent you to different schools to teach. Do you really think that this is a solid basis for the claims that you are making here that all such programs are trouble?
| vikuk wrote: |
| The most common form of farming-out is when so-called training companies (the mills) who have the right to hire FT's - |
I doubt that this is true and that in fact the most common source of teachers for such programs is actually recruitment firms and firms specifically set up for the practice. That aside you are perfectly within your rights to avoid such programs but that does not make them bad per se.
| vikuk wrote: |
| In these circumstances - being put up in plush hotels, and being wined and dined by clients - is often replaced by the grind of travel and the usual Chinese flare for bad-organisation. |
I always find it amusing how you gloss over the bulk of the posts made by others choosing only to latch onto a sentence or phrase that you then use out of context and bombard us all with ad nauseum. Not the most mature way to make your point I don't think but perhaps inline with how things are done in your work environment of the kindergarten classroom.
Yes I did enjoy the personal aspects of the wining and dining after hours, but this was all only complimentary to the educational experience of what I did during my work hours. I am a teacher and I enjoyed teaching the students in the situations that I was sent. I enjoy a challenge and I also enjoy having different students at different levels. Oh and by the way I never suggested that the hotels were plush so please don't miquote me for your own agenda.
| vikuk wrote: |
| By the way Clark glad to see you also feel much of farming-out to be an illegal activity (first time I�ve ever seen you condone one though) � I do hope upchuckles has a go at you. |
Actually vikuk I am not so sure that the practice of working for your sponsor in more than one location is illegal but I certainly welcome you to point to the relevant legislation on the matter in order to put the matter to rest. You will surely look pretty silly here if you fail to produce such legislation considering that you have really put yourself out there in your exchange with upchuckles. |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:43 am Post subject: |
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In the Griswold v. Vikuk debate, I think each could claim moral victory by not responding to the other. It takes up space to quickly peruse
For Clark, I must be a little less lazy
I think might statement about appearant contradictory views is self-explanatory, whether roght or wrong
His ?? site
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| http://www.buxiban.com/teachCN.asp |
says
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| Wages for teaching in China vary considerably from area to area, program to program, and institution to institution. The most up to date rates can often be found on message boards. As a general guide, teachers with a BA degree should be getting about RMB4000-5000 per month in rural areas, and a bit more than this in major cities. This is based upon an average teaching commitment of around 25 hours a week. If you are only working 15 hours a week or so, as is the norm for some jobs in public institutions, then you could probably expect to be getting around RMB2500-3500 per month. |
I remembered this from another thred.
I am sorry, this is ridiculous. I would say obscene. 25 hours, 4,500 per month! No teacher should be working that many hours. For Chinese teachers 12 hours is technically the norm, though for them it is "job duties", not teaching hours. Some Chinese teachers only teach 6 , or none occassionally.
16 hours is a full schedule. I would say 4,000 to 4,800 at a college or university, higher in the rural, lower at a top uni. Just look at the ads, and this is before bargaining!
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| Teachers with post-graduate qualifications can expect to earn anything from about RMB6,000-10,000 per month |
I think the recent thread on this subject, all were in agreement that at best maybe 500 a month more.
So in my experience it is most often recruiters I know who present what I know to be "unrealistic" information that would make the school or job they offer sound better.
PS a good laowai recruiter can be a big help. I know one who personally checks out the schools. Most of the other laowai recruiters will recruit for any school, even if they know nothing about the school |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:46 am Post subject: |
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PS Unless I did not scan enough, your tax rates are misleading and incorrect for foreigners.
Foreigners do not come under the same rules as natives
We are not taxed on the first 4,800 RMB per month. The limit was raised to 4,800 January 1st 2006 as I recall
Clark's site
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The progressive tax rates in China are as follows:
Personal Income Tax Rate Schedule 1 (applicable to income from wages and salaries)
Level Monthly Taxable Income Tax Rate (%)
1 Less than RMB 500 5
2 RMB 500.01 to 2000 10
3 RMB 2,000.01 to 5000 15
4 RMB 5,000.o1 to 20,000 20
5 RMB 20,000.01 to 40,000 25
6 RMB 40,000.01 to 60,000 30
7 RMB 60,000.01 to 80,000 35
8 RMB 80,000.01 to 100,000 40
9 More than RMB 100,000 45
(Note: The monthly taxable income referred to in this schedule means the balance of the monthly income after deduction of RMB 800 (US$97) in expenses or the balance after the deduction of additional deductible expenses, as stipulated in Article 6 of the Income Tax Regulations.) |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:48 am Post subject: |
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Back to the thread, also from Clark's site
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| In any legal teaching position in China you will be registered with the local authorities for work with a certain company. You are not permitted to be registered with two different companies at the same time and therefore in order to change to a new employer and become legal with the new employer, you will first need to cancel your registration with the previous employer |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:52 am Post subject: |
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PPS
Please do not take this to mean that I am sayingthis web site is not helpful. Not so. Not my point or the point of the thread |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:59 am Post subject: |
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And finally, as I continue my struggle to regain a top ten position of all time posters (it pays to use one, and only one name on this site)
Looking at the site a little more (I never really have, as it is not that useful in my particular situation)
It talks about advertising on this site. Advertising for free? If you are are charging school to advertise, then you are a recruiter, the famed/infamous middleman in China.
This would fit my theory about why you would state such obscenely ridiculous conditions as being the norm
Again
| Quote: |
| The most up to date rates can often be found on message boards. As a general guide, teachers with a BA degree should be getting about RMB4000-5000 per month in rural areas, and a bit more than this in major cities. This is based upon an average teaching commitment of around 25 hours a week. If you are only working 15 hours a week or so, as is the norm for some jobs in public institutions, then you could probably expect to be getting around RMB2500-3500 per month |
But this is supposition as why you have these rates. I will personally volunteer to knock senseless an laowai will to accept such conditions, thus bringing us all down |
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vikuk
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 10:01 am Post subject: |
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Clark wrote -
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| I assume that in that three month period you had experience with one program that sent you to different schools to teach. Do you really think that this is a solid basis for the claims that you are making here that all such programs are trouble? |
So Clark what do you base your claims on - would you like to tell us something more about your work history as an Ft (could it be a history of wining and dining during that glorious experience of being farmed-out) - was your farning out stint with one of those companies specialy set-up to carry-out this type of work - or was it with a mill??? After all getting a better understanding of a posters professional EFLpast/present interests could lead us to better understanding of their postal agenda!!!!!! By the way you're quite correct I'm a kindergarten teacher - what are you????
Last edited by vikuk on Thu Aug 09, 2007 10:09 am; edited 1 time in total |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 10:07 am Post subject: |
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PPS
I do think his website IS useful |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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Arioch it seems that I may have upset but I am unsure exactly how. I am not sure what the quotes you are taking from that site have to do with this thread and would think your questions and/or concerns are probably best addressed over at that site, but since you have brought them up here let me address them here for you.
First off those rates of RMB4,000-5,000 a month for an average of 25 hours are in our opinion correct. You make mention of high schools and universities which indeed only have average workloads of 14-18 hours per week. But you seem to be forgetting private training institutes which may require 30 or even 40 hours a week. Therefore you have an approximate average of 25 hours a week.
I am not suggesting that this is an impressive wage that we should all be proud of, but putting your head in the sand and pretending that it is not fact is not going to create change!
As far as the tax rates the tax free amount of RMB4,800 is outlined clearly on that site so perhaps you need to look a bit more clearly before you make incorrect comments.
As far as schools listing and advertising on that site yes it is now for free even though one page has yet to updated to reflect that most of the site does reflect that fact. We no longer generate any revenue from schools nor recruiters. However even if we did I disagree with you that this would make us recruiters any more than Dave Sperling is a recruiter for having ads on his site.
Sorry to hear that you don't find the site useful fortunately many people do. I am a bit confused as to why you would spend (perhaps waste is a better choice of words) so much time looking unsuccessfully for faults on a site that you claim holds no interest for you. While I certainly respect your right not to use the site if you don't want to I would think it would be more fruitful to contact us over there if you have concerns with the information on the site.
Now in an effort to ensure that this thread doesn't get locked I suggest that we take the discussion back to the topic at hand. |
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therock
Joined: 31 Jul 2005
Posts: 1266
Location: China
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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If anyone is working for 4000 - 5000RMB a month teaching 25 hours a week, they are getting screwed big time. If one is working 25 hours a week, they are more than likely to be employed by a McMill. The majority of University/College jobs offer around 4000 to 5000RMB a month and this is for anywhere between 12 to 20 hours of dancing a week.  |
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vikuk
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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| If anyone is working for 4000 - 5000RMB a month teaching 25 hours a week, they are getting screwed big time. If one is working 25 hours a week, they are more than likely to be employed by a McMill. |
If the FT is being farmed out there could be instances where you could add on at least 10 hours of unpaid traveling time to the above scenario - at least I know in my experience of being farmed that was the case!!!!! |
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OGFT
Joined: 24 Jun 2006
Posts: 432
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| Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:04 am Post subject: |
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| If you arrange (by yourself)for a job outside your city and include a fee which will pay for your time and effort including travel, the experience will often be fairly nice. If your employer arranges for you to work at other locations, they will probably earn the money and you will suffer the logistics. |
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vikuk
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842
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| Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 5:32 am Post subject: |
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OGFT writes -
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| If you arrange (by yourself)for a job outside your city and include a fee which will pay for your time and effort including travel, the experience will often be fairly nice. |
This type of employment concept can't really be regarded as being farmed-out in the typical sense - since the workload is FT self-regulated (I do believe this is called freelancing).
While this is -
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| If your employer arranges for you to work at other locations, they will probably earn the money and you will suffer the logistics. |
This last quote again sums-up the most unpleasant aspect of being farmed-out in a nutshell - being more vulnerable to the "variable" whims of your employers and their clients. And as most experienced China-hands know - Chinese employment variables can often be a very frustrating package (and variables certainly come with being farmed-out) - especially after the initial "honeymoon period" when certain employers may feel like extracting the max money making potential out their FT's � quite commonly in a way that may not agree with most FT�s. |
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