|
Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
vikuk
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842
|
 Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:22 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| Quote: |
| I'm not exactly sure what a degree in anything besides a communicative study helps you teach a 5 year old chinese boy how to pronounce the word Apple |
If you think teaching a language to 5 year old is something to do with just getting them to pronounce a word then I think you may have missed a point somewhere. After all teaching kids of that age can be very difficult because they're not able to use many of learning aids (most notably books) that older learners utalise in their quest for fluency.
Here are four factors to help understand how a qualified teacher(FT) in China may approach this problem -
-Thinking in terms of EFL instead of ESL (two very different concepts) � realizing that the small Chinese child in China can�t usualy be placed in substained English only environments that enable immersion-learning situations (as is the case with immigrant children learning English in English speaking countries). In EFL environments helping the kids clearly understand the English used is very important.
-Edutainment - trying to create fun learning environments.
-Internalising learnt language - making sure language is used and not forgotten after acquisition.
-Building student confidence through an environment of encouragement.
By the way it takes us about 2/3 years (starting at the age of 3) to teach kindy kids enough English that they can carry out simple spontaneous 2-way conversation. � and even if the kids don�t become fluent, good teaching that helps the young student enjoy the subject, and want to learn, can�t help but being a catalyst that should help the student learn at a latter stage.
A last point I'd also like to point out is that its all very easy to slam qualification if you�re not teacher qualified yourself - after all you only know half the story if haven't had the chance to experience teacher training, and be able to judge how your own performance as an educator improves after those years!!!!
I'd also like to point out that there's a huge difference between being a BA without teaching qualification and being teacher qualified. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Ona Nizm
Joined: 02 Feb 2007
Posts: 32
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
"A last point I'd also like to point out is that its all very easy to slam qualification if you�re not teacher qualified yourself - after all you only know half the story if haven't had the chance to experience teacher training, and be able to judge how your own performance as an educator improves after those years!!!!
I'd also like to point out that there's a huge difference between being a BA without teaching qualification and being teacher qualified."
Are a native, speaker of a English V? And as for "huge"? Prey tells!!! ITS not that I slam I just would like A qualification. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ona Nizm
Joined: 02 Feb 2007
Posts: 32
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
"I've seen horrible "teachers" with *beep* spelling and horrible grammar, and on the other hand no BA "teachers" who where doing an amazing job... Just my 2 cents.'" (Boubou)
Good on yer. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SnoopBot
Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 740
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Ona Nizm wrote: |
"A last point I'd also like to point out is that its all very easy to slam qualification if you�re not teacher qualified yourself - after all you only know half the story if haven't had the chance to experience teacher training, and be able to judge how your own performance as an educator improves after those years!!!!
I'd also like to point out that there's a huge difference between being a BA without teaching qualification and being teacher qualified."
Are a native, speaker of a English V? And as for "huge"? Prey tells!!! ITS not that I slam I just would like A qualification. |
First Vikuk is correct a good teaching degree insures you have a good knowledge and tool-set to be an effective teacher. In this case, a legit B.ed often beats others including those with an advanced degree that is non-education related.
Often though the teacher will not have the chance to use 90% of their knowledge base while teaching in China. So, many consider being a graduate of a teaching program to be not a requirement.
In addition, No merit or reward system exists along with the ability of further professional develpment. I will not even address the pay levels for being a graduate from a teacher degree program. (It doesn't exist the pay levels are the same)
Therefore, many teachers go on to greener pastures outside of China if they want to stay in the education field. Many FT's will never encounter a real certified/legit teacher during their teaching experience. (Except those International School jobs or higher end positions)
As for your question about being a Native Speaker, well the Chinese government sets these rules, not us. However, being a native speaker does have obvious cultural and language apitude advantages
These advantages become more evident as the level of the student advances and the type of institution the teacher teaches at. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
eslstudies
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
Posts: 1061
Location: East of Aden
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Ona Nizm wrote: |
Are a native, speaker of a English V? And as for "huge"? Prey tells!!! ITS not that I slam I just would like A qualification. |
This isn't Zhou Baijiu posting by any chance is it? Funny how the "you don't need an education to teach" brigade always shoots itself in the foot! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
u24tc
Joined: 14 May 2007
Posts: 125
Location: Dalian, China
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| boubou wrote: |
I'm a little late in the discussion,. but between someone with a TEFL (real, not online) and someone with a degree in geography, I'd go for the TEFL any day.
Let's put it this way, it's not because you hold any degree in any subject NOT related to English that you are better than say a 20 year old Scout or Cadet who has been giving X classes (whatever subject) for 2 or 3 years. So experience would once again over rule someone with a degree in geography. It does suck that there is the No degree No visa rule for that. I've seen horrible "teachers" with *beep* spelling and horrible grammar, and on the other hand no BA "teachers" who where doing an amazing job... Just my 2 cents. |
To issue a visa in China or most other countries to individuals is on the basis that the person has certain skills that he or she can bring to the country that will benefit the economy of the country.
The Government don't want to hire people with no qualifications, etc because I am sure there are already plenty in the home country. That is why they ask for a degree. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
boubou
Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 61
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 8:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
| u24tc wrote: |
To issue a visa in China or most other countries to individuals is on the basis that the person has certain skills that he or she can bring to the country that will benefit the economy of the country.
The Government don't want to hire people with no qualifications, etc because I am sure there are already plenty in the home country. That is why they ask for a degree. |
Of course, I understand! I'm just pointing out how instead of requiring a BA in any subject (which identifies that the person is not qualified to teach unless has a English-teaching-something major) it would be a good thing to require BA or TEFL. So enforcing the "Any BA" to teach English is no better than having their own unqualified teachers. A TEFL qualification is a qualification, either you have a BA or not, you are still more qualified than someone with a geography major. But hey, it's China, since when has anything been comprehensible.....? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SnoopBot
Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 740
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 2:01 am Post subject: |
|
|
| boubou wrote: |
| u24tc wrote: |
To issue a visa in China or most other countries to individuals is on the basis that the person has certain skills that he or she can bring to the country that will benefit the economy of the country.
The Government don't want to hire people with no qualifications, etc because I am sure there are already plenty in the home country. That is why they ask for a degree. |
Of course, I understand! I'm just pointing out how instead of requiring a BA in any subject (which identifies that the person is not qualified to teach unless has a English-teaching-something major) it would be a good thing to require BA or TEFL. So enforcing the "Any BA" to teach English is no better than having their own unqualified teachers. A TEFL qualification is a qualification, either you have a BA or not, you are still more qualified than someone with a geography major. But hey, it's China, since when has anything been comprehensible.....? |
The big problem these days are the fake ESL certificates and the dodgy mills that are set up to sucker potential teachers with ESL certifications.
The ESL certification these days mean very little, most Chinese staff don't know the difference from a real CELTA/DELTA at a top university from ESL mills R-US Thailand University. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
william wallace
Joined: 14 May 2003
Posts: 2869
Location: in between
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 3:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
The bigger problem as I see it, is those folks regardless of educational background,doing ESL until they get or decide to get the real job/career.They can be found in any demographic, but my experience tells me that they're mostly very young(18-25),dominate the class with their Mandarin learning, hit on gals(so,they're mostly guys....obviously), seen in less than authoritative circumstances at the bars...etc.That is not to say,by no means, that the middle age drooling drunk doesn't happen-it does!
What certificate or piece of paper ensures a concerned and thoughtful teacher? In my experience,in some ways it(sadly) doesn't matter,because so many schools and management also are not concerned; be they a domestic or foreign enterprise. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SnoopBot
Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 740
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 1:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| william wallace wrote: |
| What certificate or piece of paper ensures a concerned and thoughtful teacher? In my experience,in some ways it(sadly) doesn't matter,because so many schools and management also are not concerned; be they a domestic or foreign enterprise. |
It sure doesn't matter often for pay rates or choice of decent places to work. However, it seems to matter when they need someone to design a "new" business course, do assessments, promote the institution with English corners; of course all at the same rate of pay as those 18-25 year olds you just mentioned above. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
william wallace
Joined: 14 May 2003
Posts: 2869
Location: in between
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 3:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Snoopbot:
Would Shakespeare qualify ? Given that he hip up on some Ebonics,and
modern slang. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
peepertice
Joined: 23 Nov 2005
Posts: 63
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 5:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| So enforcing the "Any BA" to teach English is no better than having their own unqualified teachers. |
i haven't read all 14 pages of this thread which i don't apologize for although i do apologize if anyone has made this point before.
i don't see why the demand for a degree causes so much consternation amongst certain elements of the EFL/ESL teaching community.
the fact is that most jobs in the UK (which is the only job market i can comment on) above manual labour/shop assistant/bus driver etc. all require degrees (and not necessarily in a relevant field).
why?
because a candidate who has a degree has shown that they can commit themselves to independent study (or call it 'work') over a period of time (usually 3 years). most mainstream degrees also promote analytical and problem-solving skills, amongst other things.
i trust i don't need to explain why this is a positive thing in the eyes of many employers.
can you imagine the outcry in our home countries if people with no degrees were being allowed to come and teach our youngsters?
Why should china or any other country with a large TEFL market accept those with mickey mouse qualifications or no qualifications whatsoever?
like it or not, decent qualifications (degrees, CELTAs, DELTAs) are a hard & fast way of sorting the wheat from the chaff, and i would suggest that in 8 or 9 times out of ten, are pretty reliable
Caveat time - of course there are those (very much a minority in my experience) who are decent teachers who have no qualifications but put yourself in the shoes of an employer or indeed whoever decides on what basis working visas should be handed out - they have to draw a line somewhere and use some criteria to make their choices. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SnoopBot
Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 740
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| william wallace wrote: |
Snoopbot:
Would Shakespeare qualify ? Given that he hip up on some Ebonics,and
modern slang. |
WW, thankfully I have not been told I must teach Ebonics or Hip-Hop vernacular (yet).
My students are older because I was teaching at a university continuous education program. Therefore, they were uninterested in Hip-Hop.
However, I would not doubt in the future that this might happen. The FT's role will entertain students with the latest "coolness" and language lingo and dance steps.
We will be hired solely for our "Coolness" and entertainment factor.
Shakespeare, he might get hired if he was alive today. He can entertain and is White.
Of course for only 3000 Rmb a month. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Shan-Shan
Joined: 28 Aug 2003
Posts: 1074
Location: electric pastures
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
The FT's role will entertain students with the latest "coolness" and language lingo and dance steps.
|
The irony is that Chinese are so uncool themselves. There are so few alternative voices, alternate ways in China.
Can't remember the name, but there was a band which had a simple little tune called "fu@k you, 2008 Olympics". I watched a performance of this song via youtube, and found the expletives sweet and vibrant. The CCP -- the "people" -- however couldn't tolerate a group of three and their scattered fans putting down the Olympics, and forcibly cancelled a number of the band's performances.
No doubt "threatening the stability of the State" was cited as the reason for the cancellations, a stability which rests upon trillions of Liu Xiang posters (where he runs and jumps around anything from computers to coke) plastering every bit of cityscape which might scream a "fu@k off, I want something else".
Modern China is the antithesis of the cool. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
OGFT
Joined: 24 Jun 2006
Posts: 432
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:20 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Can you find out the name of the band. Where were the preformances cancelled. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
