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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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 Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 3:05 am Post subject: |
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| alexcase wrote: |
| in the UK does a PGCE ESOL teach immigrants and a PGCE EFL teach foreign students (maybe in a different class in the same further education college??) If so, how do they decide which one is which? |
Whether the university chooses to call it ESOL/EFL/ELT is up to them, there's no difference in the methodology and the courses would be virtually identical and accepted either way. The most important part of a PGCE is your personal development as a teacher and the ability to practically apply suitable methodology.
As a qualified teacher you are required to apply your knowledge to diverse contexts, you may even be asked to teach subjects which are completely outside your specialism.
I had a recruiter argue with me once saying that the PGCE was for ESOL and the DELTA was for EFL. I went through the DELTA course and it is identical to the ESOL PGCE in almost every way in regards to what was taught, except the standard of teaching practice required for the PGCE is higher and it also covers areas the DELTA doesn't. This is one reason they have introduced a DELTA extension module to bring it in line with Further Education requirements.
For the PGCE your teaching practice would probably be in an ESOL environment whereas with the DELTA it's more likely to be EFL, although it could easily be ESOL as well. |
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alexcase
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 215
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 3:17 am Post subject: |
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| Really the last question on this I promise. As you said most people taking PGCE already have experience, do you think you would even be able to get on the course with none, due to competition for places etc? In a similar way, a primary school PGCE usually demands you have some amount of experience with young children before they let you on |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 3:27 am Post subject: |
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| alexcase wrote: |
| As you said most people taking PGCE already have experience, do you think you would even be able to get on the course with none, due to competition for places etc? In a similar way, a primary school PGCE usually demands you have some amount of experience with young children before they let you on |
A PGCE is a pre-service course and as such teaching experience is not expected, although it may help your application. If you hold certain certificates you may be exempt from a module or two. I think you'd need the City & Guilds in teaching assistance to be specific.
You need a first degree in your specialism (for high school), but not for Further Education (you still need a degree though), although if you want to teach numeracy, literacy or ESOL you also have to do a Level 4 certificate in your specialism.
As the two sectors are more and more intertwined there is a lot of crossover with those specialising in FE required to teach kids as young as 14 now. The high school PGCE's allow you teach FE automatically. |
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alexcase
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 215
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 3:38 am Post subject: |
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I really did think that was last question, but...
Putting aside what it qualifies you for for a moment, do you think someone who went straight into a PGCE in TESOL is likely to have as good practical teaching skills as someone who had just finished the DELTA (and therefore is likely to have taught at least three years but would have had less "contact time" being trained)? I'm asking as someone who will probably be seeing such CVs sooner or later. |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| alexcase wrote: |
| do you think someone who went straight into a PGCE in TESOL is likely to have as good practical teaching skills as someone who had just finished the DELTA (and therefore is likely to have taught at least three years but would have had less "contact time" being trained)? |
Yes.
In fact you could say that the fact that someone is allowed to teach EFL for years without a diploma shows the disparity between the standards we expect from our public school teachers and the standards applied to ELT around the world.
Someone with years of experience may have picked up many bad habits if they haven't had professional feedback over the years. Someone that's just finished a PGCE (or equivalent) will have had at least one year in a classroom during the course and will have had (hopefully) very useful feedback from professionals and successfully passed observations. Many completing the course have years of EFL experience anyway.
I tend to find that CELTA/DELTA focuses too much on the preferred Cambridge 'method' of limited communicative language teaching theories rather than considering the broader methodologies available. These really aren't the be all and end all of teaching practise.
The DELTA is a rigorous course of study as well and I am not detracting in any way from its usefulness. I do feel the whole Cambridge system needs an overhaul though and that recruiters need to be more educated in alternative experience and qualifications rather than relying on these as the only standard. |
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alexcase
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 215
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:56 am Post subject: |
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| I dont doubt it. Ive got the DELTA, but I still use the words Real Teacher to describe people with PGCEs... As people who want to travel (eg. me) are never likely to spend two years in the UK before they go away, do you think there is any theoretical way of changing or adding to the CELTA to make up for some of the gap? Perhaps there could be demands for observations etc. in their first year that go to make up an Advanced CELTA?? We spent too much of my DELTA going through the phonemic script with people who had forgotten it, so maybe the standards could be raised if the typical first qualification could also be upgraded a little?? |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| alexcase wrote: |
| do you think there is any theoretical way of changing or adding to the CELTA to make up for some of the gap? Perhaps there could be demands for observations etc. in their first year that go to make up an Advanced CELTA?? |
There's a Celta Level 4 or something like that, which allows you to upgrade if you're already in FE. I think it requires quite a bit of teaching observation. There's the DELTA extension module as well which I think does the same thing for those with DELTA's.
I'm not sure if these will be accepted without a PGCE after 2010 for people wanting to enter FE or whether they are for people already employed in order for them to upgrade to the necessary level?
| alexcase wrote: |
| We spent too much of my DELTA going through the phonemic script with people who had forgotten it, so maybe the standards could be raised if the typical first qualification could also be upgraded a little?? |
After finishing a DELTA there's no doubt you should know things like phonetics and grammar inside out as you have to drill it in to pass the exam. In fact you probably know far more than anyone doing any other course, MA or PGCE, would ever have to learn unless they chose to.
Whether that helps teaching is debatable as an exam has no relation to the resources and materials available to a teacher who has prepped a class.
Either way it's certainly good to know it, but I reckon they should scrap the exam and focus on more practical training as it seems to be difficulty for difficulties sake. The fact that your trainers had forgotten it shows how unimportant it's been for them in their career. There's an issue about the quality of CELTA/DELTA trainers and observers as well who can vary enormously from place to place.
The whole private ELT qualification system seems to be a self-sustaining business model where the teachers pay increasingly large amounts to teach each other, let alone any actual students.
I had a friend that was a DELTA trainer in Sweden and he earned a small fortune. When he was doing his MA he quit because he said the lecturers weren't using adequate (DELTA) teaching methods.  That's a dangerously blinkered viewpoint right there, especially as it wasn't even a teacher training course. Conversel | |
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