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Katja84
Joined: 06 May 2007
Posts: 165
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 Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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| eslstudies wrote: |
| On the other hand, despite my travels [including India] and a long time now in ESL, the support people from my internet company, who work from India, take quite a lot of effort to understand. I can tell they share my frustration, as their perfect Indian English does not work well for either of us! |
So are you actually sure that the support staff of Dell are native speakers of English or at the very least bilingual? In India there are massive differences between the level of English spoken on the one hand by people from rural areas in the north (where the prominance of Hindi means that English is not as important) and wealthy families in the south. It is very difficult for us to determine which of these people Dell Computers choose to employ - a person who is not in fact even fluent in English, or a person that is fluent and is simply using an Indian dialect of English (I haven't got a Dell Computer, but if anyone feels up for some research...) My point is that I doubt the Chinese are thinking about hiring "any Indian" the way "any American" can get a job - they would most likely be selective, and Indians who do speak English as a first language (or a fluent second) should be just as welcome in China as the average American.
Snoopbot:
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Don't you agree with this statement, "Doing a good job, having good qualifications and experience should lead to a greater professional and career growth?"
Explain why not, make your position clear on this. |
I know you have an affinity for putting words in my mouth but can you please tell me how this relates to my earlier post and why you assume I disagree with it? |
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eslstudies
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
Posts: 1061
Location: East of Aden
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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double post
Last edited by eslstudies on Wed Sep 05, 2007 7:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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eslstudies
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
Posts: 1061
Location: East of Aden
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| So are you actually sure that the support staff of Dell are native speakers of English or at the very least bilingual? |
You've totally lost me; I wasn't talking about Dell, but about an Australian telco and internet company that's outsourced its call centre to somewhere in India.
I agree that
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| Indians who do speak English as a first language (or a fluent second) should be just as welcome in China as the average American. |
, evidenced I think by the fact that I was responsible for hiring the Indian woman I mentioned previously.
Fluency isn't so much the issue as accent. |
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Katja84
Joined: 06 May 2007
Posts: 165
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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| eslstudies wrote: |
| You've totally lost me; I wasn't talking about Dell, but about an Australian telco and internet company that's outsourced its call centre to somewhere in India. |
Oh sorry, it was Snoopbot who mentioned Dell and who complained about their English - I only happened to quote you because you mentioned experience with Indians with various levels of English  |
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SnoopBot
Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 740
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:31 pm Post subject: Re: none |
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| johnchina wrote: |
| There I also wonder how many of these Indians will be former call centre staff who are now losing their jobs as UK firms move call centres back to the UK because of complaints about the poor level of English? |
This happened in the USA, Dell Computer was rated number 1 until they started switching service centers to India.
The support service was so bad , Dell's stock tumbled and they moved last in the Computer market. This all happened within a year, one of the biggest complaints was the service centers poor English skills.
I read this a few years back in my PC computing mag subscription and IT sites.
I feel, Indians are a cheaper alternative compared to us, and this is the primary reason on doing this switch. Again follow the money trails.
The article stated they wanted to learn TECHNICAL English Computer/IT registery from India. Can't they find in-country qualified FT's that can teach this now.
Just an interesting article so I posted it. |
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SnoopBot
Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 740
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Katja84 wrote: |
| eslstudies wrote: |
| You've totally lost me; I wasn't talking about Dell, but about an Australian telco and internet company that's outsourced its call centre to somewhere in India. |
Oh sorry, it was Snoopbot who mentioned Dell and who complained about their English - I only happened to quote you because you mentioned experience with Indians with various levels of English |
The big problem with this is the fact we are primary used as Oral Conversational teachers. So an important fact would be the ability to understand spoken English (oral) ability.
The second fact is the English ability is primarly for business and job related activities.
Having a strong accent that cannot be understood well is not beneficial to the students learning the language. (Does not meet the primary purpose)
I thought you were in some type of Education Teaching program in the UK that is TESOL flavored? Have they covered regional dialects and linguistics yet? They will discuss this situation and the possible negative outcomes in your studies.
Do you want me to track down those old articles about Dell?
I think more than one company had this problem as ESL Studies knew of additional cases.
Imagine yourself with a brand new $2000 Computer that does not work. You get someone on the other end that cannot communicate properly to solve the problem. Would you get angry and insure next time you bought a computer from a company that had better support staff?
This is exactly what my grandmother did. She will never buy a Dell again because of the communication problems contacting the Indian support staff.
Consumer disatisfication = they talk with their pocket books.
I used this as example of the importance of having good spoken English abilities. This is especially true if you are placed in the teacher role.
Don't you agree with this statement? If not Why not? |
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Katja84
Joined: 06 May 2007
Posts: 165
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| SnoopBot wrote: |
Do you want me to track down those old articles about Dell? I think more than one company had this problem as ESL Studies knew of additional cases.
Imagine yourself with a brand new $2000 Computer that does not work. You get someone on the other end that cannot communicate properly to solve the problem. Would you get angry and insure next time you bought a computer from a company that had better support staff?
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I am not in any way defending Dell - I am blaming them. I am saying that perhaps, in order to cut costs, Dell has decided to get any random Indian people to answer phonecalls (probably those with technical skills) rather than Indians who are native speakers of English or fluent in English. If you can find any information confirming or discounting my suspicions that would be nice, thank you.
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| Having a strong accent that cannot be understood well is not beneficial to the students learning the language. |
I agree with that - whether it is an Indian accent, a Scottish accent, an Australian accent or a Texas accent, strong accents can be difficult for students to understand. I'm afraid we haven't spoken about accents in my TESOL course, so perhaps you can fill me in? What is the standard procedure? To ask teachers to tone down their accents and try to speak as clearly as possible? To judge every teacher on their own accent rather than the accent of the region from where they arrive? Or to stop hiring people from Scotland, Australia, India and Texas, as you seem to imply (or do you only have a problem with India)? My English teacher in college came from India, and I am simply saying that as she had impeccable English and had grown up speaking it, it would be a shame if she had been discriminated against. |
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johnchina
Joined: 24 Apr 2006
Posts: 816
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 1:42 am Post subject: none |
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| WW - I remember that one. I also remember being extremely nervous when I gave her a nine and no-one else did! |
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u24tc
Joined: 14 May 2007
Posts: 125
Location: Dalian, China
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 3:24 am Post subject: |
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On the subject of service centres and companies switching it abroad as it is cheaper.
I HATE.. I repeat.. HATE... those Indian people who kept calling my home in the UK non stop about UK Finance EVEN WHEN I asked them 'Are you calling from the UK?'
How the hell do they know or can help you with your finances if they are calling from India.
O yeh.. BT can't do squat... they can't block the calls without blocking ALL international numbers which mean that if you have a friend wanting to call you from abroad, they won't be able to.
Bit off topic... but damn.... I am sure you all know what I mean. |
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11:59
Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 632
Location: Hong Kong: The 'Pearl of the Orient'
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 4:19 am Post subject: |
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Katja, I'm sorry but I have to say that I'm finding it increasingly difficult to believe that you are Finnish. I spent a year in Finland and it's an incredible country full of lovely people, most if not all of whom have excellent English (and often Swedish as well, and occasionally with strong Russian and German to boot), but your written English is just a bit too good.
Oh well, voi voi! (Ja l�mmin leip�!) |
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eslstudies
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
Posts: 1061
Location: East of Aden
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 7:56 am Post subject: |
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| Katja, I'm sorry but I have to say that I'm finding it increasingly difficult to believe that you are Finnish. |
Funnily enough AS, at one point I thought this was one of your projects. |
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11:59
Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 632
Location: Hong Kong: The 'Pearl of the Orient'
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I suppose one additional reason I find it somewhat challenging to believe that Katja is Finnish is that, elsewhere, she also claims to be Swedish:
"I do realize the situation is very different for people from non-Western countries and especially non-white people, and am rather fortunate in this context to be both an EU citizen (from Finland) and white."
http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?p=544009&highlight=#544009
"I guess it's just a matter of degree - for me it is just as hard to understand why Americans put up with their system of governance (coming from a much more liberal/social democratic Sweden) as it probably is for you guys to understand the Chinese system."
http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?p=591328&highlight=#591328 |
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william wallace
Joined: 14 May 2003
Posts: 2869
Location: in between
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Dear 11:59, a very good challenge....Scandinavia ?? |
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Katja84
Joined: 06 May 2007
Posts: 165
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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| 11:59 wrote: |
Well, I suppose one additional reason I find it somewhat challenging to believe that Katja is Finnish is that, elsewhere, she also claims to be Swedish:
"I do realize the situation is very different for people from non-Western countries and especially non-white people, and am rather fortunate in this context to be both an EU citizen (from Finland) and white."
http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?p=544009&highlight=#544009
"I guess it's just a matter of degree - for me it is just as hard to understand why Americans put up with their system of governance (coming from a much more liberal/social democratic Sweden) as it probably is for you guys to understand the Chinese system."
http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?p=591328&highlight=#591328 |
Lol - I was wondering when somebody was going to catch on to the fact that I claim two nationalities, but if you've lived in Finland I guess you've heard about the �land Islands (or perhaps you would know it as Ahvenanmaa)? I consider myself Swedish, but when I state my nationality (rather than discuss ideas) I am a citizen of Finland. I speak Finnish as a third language only, which should explain why I have no clue why you're moaning about warm bread?!? |
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11:59
Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 632
Location: Hong Kong: The 'Pearl of the Orient'
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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'Voi, voi, voi' would be translated as (something akin to) 'Oh, dear, dear', or 'Oh, deary me', but, of course, 'voi' also means 'butter' (among other homophones). So, when Finns come out with 'voi, voi, voi' with a sigh, others invariably come back with 'Ja l�mmin leip�!' which as you state means 'And hot bread'. It is typical Finnish 'humour'. Anyway, v�lkommen till Kina! Hur l�nge ska du stanna?
Last edited by 11:59 on Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:43 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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