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How low do you think FTs will work for ?
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Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> China (Job-related Posts Only)

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How low would someone other than yourself work for FT per mo.

5000 RMB

18%

[ 8 ]

4000 RMB

16%

[ 7 ]

3000 RMB

39%

[ 17 ]

2000 RMB

25%

[ 11 ]

Total Votes : 43

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johnchina

Joined: 24 Apr 2006
Posts: 816

Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:09 am Post subject: none

For those interested in volunteer work which will truly help ordinary people (in this case 'kids'), as opposed to filling the pockets of fat cats, www.magichospital.org offers great opportunities.

sheeba

Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 1123

Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:25 am Post subject:

Quote:

Ohhhh come on Sheeba - I strongly believe, in so many situations, that the sole reason so many laowai are employed as FT is for the purpose of generating money.

I'm not disagreeing with you Vik. In fact I agree with a lot of what you are saying about now.

I'm speculating about the future(which as I learn I really shouldn't do!)

Your knowledge of the private sector money making machines outweighs mine by far. I'm looking more at the Uni classes. But I think there will be a similar effect in the private sector. Not so many Chinese will be wasting their money on these overpriced McSchools(Is that what you call them?) in the future.

This is of course my opinion.

arioch36

Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589

Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:43 pm Post subject:

Quote:

What I have been trying to argue is that STUDENTS do not want to pay HIGHER fees in order to have QUALIFIED laowais

And i am saying I do not see this as the reality. First, students do not pay tuition. I'll say it even again, students do not pay tuition, except a smaller percenage of adult students.

Parents (and older students) are willing to pay higher fees for teachers they think will help the child learn the most. This is factual. Why are laowai paid more? Because rightly or wrongly parents pereive that the laowai class will help their child.

Now what you think makes a laowai teacher qualified and what they think may well differ.

Just like what you think a teachers college should be like and what the Chinese think it should be like doesn't change the fact that there are many teacher colleges

Quote:

but the question of whether it focuses on subject-skills or teaching-skills is not. That's integral to my argument. Are teaching-skills considered essential in China? A good way of answering that question is to consider the extent to which Chinese teachers learn about teaching methodology as opposed to subject skills

Well, here we are talking about whether their methods and philosophy are suitable to you, because it is a fact that the teacher colleges are numerous. And my take of the gist of many of your posts is that we need to adapt more to the Chinese way if we want to live China.

Whether their ideas on how one becomes a good teacher are the same as yours, or "modern" thinking, is an entirely different topic.

Being a Psych Ed dropout, I do disagree with much of the worthless, meaningless doublespeak used in the West with the main designed of being published.

Recently a poster named Worldly talked again and again how modern methodology teaches us the notion of "student centered". What PC gibberish. The teacher has been, is, and will always be the focus and center of any effective classroom, and this is the way the western universities work. But you could say I am totally wrong. This doesn't alter the simple fact that China has many colleges devoted to making students teachers. You are in China, dominated by ... Chinese philosophy?

And the other unalterable fact is that parents (and older self-sufficient students, a small minority) are willing to pay more for a class they think will be effective. They may just not agree on your definition on what makes a qualified teacher (MA TESOL) I certainly would not agree with your definition, as some others teaching here for a while would not.

arioch36

Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589

Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:49 pm Post subject:

Quote:

But I think there will be a similar effect in the private sector. Not so many Chinese will be wasting their money on these overpriced McSchools(Is that what you call them?) in the future.

But what will all these one-child families do with their extra income? Part of the national pysche is that parents must starve themselves, if neccessary, on education for children.

And what will all the college grads who can't find a job do for a living?

Katja84

Joined: 06 May 2007
Posts: 165

Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:49 pm Post subject:

arioch36 wrote:

Now what you think makes a laowai teacher qualified and what they think may well differ.

Just like what you think a teachers college should be like and what the Chinese think it should be like doesn't change the fact that there are many teacher colleges.

So with other words, contrary to your earlier post, you do not at all "strongly disagree" with anything I had to say? If you "strongly disagree" with anything I have said earlier (taking into account the qualifications I made at the time), do quote me, because your arguments are entirely unrelated to mine (despite the fact that you keep quoting me).

Quote:

Well, here we are talking about whether their methods and philosophy are suitable to you.

No, we're not. We never were. We were talking about (at least until you interupted) whether Chinese students want to pay more in order to have foreign teachers that have BAs in Education (as opposed to BAs in any random subject). If you have misunderstood, go back a few posts and re-read them. If you think I have not been clear enough, go back a few posts and quote me.

Quote:

First, students do not pay tuition. I'll say it even again, students do not pay tuition, except a smaller percenage of adult students.

You can repeat it as much as you want but I would prefer if you would back it up in some way, because I was rather certain that students did pay tuition fees - I seem to remember students at my uni paid 1200 yuan a year, whereas other universities are even more expensive? This is backed up by the following article:
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2007-01/16/content_784859.htm Language mills obviously charge students as well.

vikuk

Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842

Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:28 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Dearest Katya - please pay special attention to the word - Parents. Right enough ol' arioch's thoughtline can be a bit hard to follow - but the response to his point .........

Quote:

and an article from the China daily to prove that school fees exist in China. Wow this is redhot debating at its best Laughing

william wallace

Joined: 14 May 2003
Posts: 2869
Location: in between

Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 3:23 pm Post subject:

I almost think this should be a separate thread: I have been involved in non basic ESL now for about 8-9 years. I've been involved in so-called legit (Western) degree/certification for about four years now....and it is ALWAYS about the income/profit....and I'm saying THIS is total BS, so what would "simple" ESL be worth in salt ?

Katja84

Joined: 06 May 2007
Posts: 165

Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:17 pm Post subject:

vikuk wrote:

Quote:

Dearest Katya - please pay special attention to the word - Parents. Right enough ol' arioch's thoughtline can be a bit hard to follow - but the response to his point .........

Right, so how is this relevant to arioch36's argument and not just a question of semantics? The argument stands: students (or parents, grandparents, uncles or whoever is paying on behalf of students) do not generally want to pay more for FTs with a major in Education if they can get one with a major in xxx much cheaper.

sheeba

Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 1123

Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:17 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Good Lord. R u livin in Mars. Chinese people r not morons. Please.

arioch36

Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589

Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:45 pm Post subject:

well let's start from the beginning then. We started by talking about low wages for us laowai, and your feeling they aren't low, and should we be paid more. The straightforward part

first Katja says

Quote:

One principle may well be "equal pay for equal work", meaning if you do the same job with the same success as a Chinese teacher, you'll get the same salary

which is meaningless.
What definition for success? Well, if you are talking about language mills, why does every language mill want laowai? Because it helps them get more money and attention. Parents (students) pay more money for a laowai teacher. Schools make more money.

Talking about unis Again, my uni, the parents pay 15,000 a year to the International Department with the promise of having a laowai more hours a week. These parents ARE WILLING TO PAY MORE for what they think will bring their child success. The lowest tuition I know of is about 3,500. Of course they get fewer laowai hours. Middle schools operate the same way. Tuition is based on perception, Big bucks here, you had better have some laowai.
Katja

Quote:

Quote:
What I have been trying to argue is that STUDENTS do not want to pay HIGHER fees in order to have QUALIFIED laowais

So yes, I totally disagree with you, with the qualification of parents, because parents pay the bills; and parents in China will make about any sacrifice to give their child what they perceive to be an educational edge. You disagree?

However, what is a qualified laowai? Does Harvard do a better job at teaching? Or is it the perception regardless of the reality?

Quote:

The difference lies not in the colour of our skin but in our capabilities, and those capabilities differ from person to person, so I don't see why you think a foreigner should be entitled to higher pay simply by virtue of being a foreigner

Quote:

but I do not think your argument for more money should be "I'm white and a foreigner".

"should get paid " is another argument, a matter of market principles. I should get paid more, because I bring more students or money to the school. WHat school in China measures the capability of the laowai, other then is he capable of going to the classroom each day and not complaining too much.

Beacause I have a MA? Schools often ask me to help them find a teacher. Never do they ask what is their major, or do they have an MA.

Are you white, are you from US, UK or OZ. Then, how many years have you been teaching ... in China. I am paid more then a Filipino because the school believes I am worth more, because the parents who pay the biils think I am worth more, and the students think I am worth more...
before ever teaching a class. Right or wrong? Another argument.
THIS IS CHINA

Some schools in China go for the short term profit, and hire Black Africans who third language is English. They work more hours for less. And in the long run this backfires on the school. Others hire backpackers, and I do believe many quality issues arise from this, the school learns their lesson, and they hire older, more expensive teachers, then the school thinks all is well, forgetting their lesson, and hire cheap teachers, many problems, an endless cycle. Right now many schools are doing this. A rapid influx of whities, lets hire the cheapest. China is focused on short term only. What was the Russel quote? "two dollars today, and not four dollars tomorrow? The schools raised tuition according to having laowais, and now they think they can cash in by hiring cheap backpackers (My school gave me a raise Very Happy

)

What is perceived to be a quality teacher in China by the parents that pay the bills? MA for a laowai ain't worth diddly, Personally, and from speaking to others they may be right. I am thinking now of Lonesome Dave, taught writing in Korea then in CHina, returned to the States for his Ma Writing, said he learned a lot about teaching writing, but nothing that would help him in China. Without the in-country experience, the MA is worthless

PARENTS WILL PAY MORE FOR WHAT THEY THINK WILL HELP THEIR CHILD GET THE EDGE

arioch36

Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589

Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:58 pm Post subject:

Quote:

What I am against is the assumption that because you're American you deserve an American salary regardless of which country you choose to work in

.

Deserve? Does Beckham "deserve" 50 million a year? Is it "fair"?

I do believe that the current trend of going for the cheap teacher, I mean a trend exceedingly stressed the past year will hurt the business/profession. Paying lower wages in any business usually backfires. You get what you pay for. I am slowly winning my wife over to the notion that paying more for quality is cheaper in the long run, as she bought the cheapest batteries they went bad after a couple of days. But this is not the normal thought in much of China. Th long run??? Here?

Katja84

Joined: 06 May 2007
Posts: 165

Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 9:22 pm Post subject:

arioch36 wrote:

Quote:

One principle may well be "equal pay for equal work", meaning if you do the same job with the same success as a Chinese teacher, you'll get the same salary

If you had been keeping up with the discussion back then, you might have picked this up:

Quote:

While I agree that a lot of people "will not accept low wages based on principle", the principles we are talking about may well not be the same ones... One principle may well be "equal pay for equal work", meaning if you do the same job with the same success as a Chinese teacher, you'll get the same salary.

Quote:

I would say that the teaching ability of a Chinese person who has done a 4 year degree in English including some teaching qualifications plus their knowledge of the teaching context in China makes them about as valuable as a Westerner with a BA in biology, no teaching qualifications and not a clue what it's like to teach in China. Whereas the American may have better English skills, the Chinese person is more likely to know where the Chinese students are coming from. I think that's comparing like with like since the advantages and disadvantages of each cancel each other out.

This (at least if read in context, so you may want to go back and read what other people were saying as well) should make it clear that 1. I was talking about principles, not practicality. Some people were implying that it was unethical to work for a lower salary than other FTs, thus undercutting their wages, and I replied that if we do the same job as a Chinese teacher then it shouldn't be unethical to accept the same salary as Chinese teachers. It should also have been clear that 2. I talked about success in terms of teaching skills, not in ability to attract money. Those are the qualifications I made at the time, and thus I do not recognize your argument to be in opposition to mine, as they deal with different issues.

Quote:

I think what we are forgetting here is that it wasn't long ago even in the West that it was assumed that what people needed in order to teach was subject skills not teaching skills - indeed, isn't that still the case for universities and many independent secondary schools?

Languages are different in that sense since people can 'naturally' have subject skills, which they may not 'naturally' have in other subjects. But since in countries like China teachers (Chinese teachers, that is) mainly learn subject skills (with only very little emphasis on teaching skills) it makes sense that Chinese employers would want to employ anyone with subject skills. High school graduates from the United States do have that.

I think the problem of ESL in China is caused not by an influx of native speakers, but by the expectations Chinese people have of a teacher of English - the assumption that a teacher needs only subject skills, not teaching skills. For a person with a BA in Education with TESOL to be valued higher than one with a BA in Politics, this will need to change.

It is - my point was not to defend the practise of hiring unqualified teachers, but to put the complaints on this forum in perspective. Teaching has rarely been seen as a top-end job, even in much more affluent countries. To expect Chinese schools to appreciate BAs and MAs in Education is simply premature.

Quote:

Vikuk:
So why do Chinese employers always put to the forefront any FT who happens to have a BA or MA in Education???? These teachers are always being used to represent the rest of the FT�s in an attempt to convince fee-paying customers that teacher standards in that organization are high enough to qualify the highest possible fees.

I'm sure it happens, but I think it depends on the institution and what the other teachers are like. If a school had the option to be represented by a professional-looking, middle-aged English teacher with a PhD in History from Oxford, or a young, newly graduated teacher with BA Education with TESOL, which do you think they would choose? You imply that a BA in Education is recognized in China, by parents if not institutions, which I'm still not convinced about.

This is where the discussion begun. Here I clarified the distinction I made between subject skills and teaching skills, and how I defined qualifications, and later on I implicitly, and sometimes explicitly, referred back to this post.

Quote:

"should get paid " is another argument, a matter of market principles.

The question of what is ethical is not just decided by demand and supply (some people may think so, but the person I addressed in this argument did not, as he had earlier referred to another �matter of principle� that is beyond the laws of supply and demand, which is why I proposed another principle).

Nobody appreciates being misquoted or having words put in their mouths that aren't theirs, so please try to refrain from doing so in the future.

SnoopBot

Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 740
Location: USA

Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 12:44 am Post subject:

arioch36 wrote:

Quote:

My beef is under the current system, no real incentive exist for those with education backgrounds and upper-level certifications. I would not call a 300 RMB a month extra in pay as a real incentive

Upward mobility is my big beef. My current school does the Chinese method ... 200 RMB per month raise every two years. But even if I stay 20 years, I am still just a laowai.
A Chinese Phd could pull down twice or trhice the salary as a Chinese with BA, but usally the same pay with laowai. I do know a few colleges that will look for an experienced teacher with MA and pay slightly more, but let them also be involved in the planning

I have seen a point, which I will call the "saturation point" where a foreign teacher with experience and higher education actually gets paid lower than the Chinese teachers at the university level.

China is geared towards paying the unqualified laowai a very good salary compared to an equal or higher qualified Chinese teacher based on "foreigner White looks."

However, it gets to a "saturation point" when the qualified-well experienced FT cannot go any further and stagnates. At this point the FT must make certain decisions:

1. Look for a better position
2. Switch jobs to something outside of the ESL-teaching circuit
3. Hope for a real International job
4. Go back home or to another country.
5. Open their own school (requires Chinese partnership)
6. Accept their glass ceiling and stick with their old job until a new director finds a cheaper replacement.

Again, I'll repeat this fact- doing a great job, having high qualifications and certifications = more work and flagship duties / for almost the same pay as someone with much lower qualifications and workload.

At the mills, this person might be coveted more if they are a good cash cow as long as they "know their place in the system" and accept it without making additional demands. (Shutup about your broken toilet and keep bringing in the students/bucks type mentality)

I am sure there are exceptions to this rule, but generally this is the rule of thumb. I think this is detrimental to both FT and the students they teach.

Shan-Shan

Joined: 28 Aug 2003
Posts: 1074
Location: electric pastures

Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:58 am Post subject:

Quote:

"foreigner White looks."

Education is business -- don't be fooled by the "public school" and "private school" dichotomy. There is no difference. We are in China, a "for-profit" country.

The manager from a real estate company came by my school's FA's office yesterday in search of white people. The use? To attend the launch party of a new apartment complex. With white people in attendance, the manager said, the Chinese will believe that investing in this particular complex will only reap rewards and riches.

Kind of like having a white person in the English classroom: their presence guarantees success. The FT is English, right there in front of you, radiant and pure!

China is all image -- why should the ESL classroom (a very unimportant place in the grand scheme of things) be any different?

7969

Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5782
Location: Coastal Guangdong

Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 6:41 am Post subject:

Shan-Shan wrote:

Quote:

"foreigner White looks."

whats the going rate for attending one of these parties? i've seen a few of them...

not only is china all image when it comes to esl, it seems many countries where esl is big business, its mostly built on "image."

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