Job Discussion Forums

[john_n_carolina]

well, you have a point about my not reading through the original posts.

but, now your analysis is even more flawed:

how can "a few" doctors, nurses, tour guides (less than many) put to shame "many" native English speakers?? many could mean thousands, or are we talking millions?
many Americans don't support the Iraq war. does this mean 10,15 or 20? no, it means millions.

back to sports:

how can a few Cuban pitchers put to shame many pitchers in the MLB?? they don't

how can a few Swiss tennis stars put to shame many US tennis players in the USTA??
they don't

how can a few Chinese students put to shame many US H.S. students??
they don't (although we're getting closer)


it's obvious you aren't going to retract "the shame" part. what you should've said was "on par with" or "very good level"....but, then to make a presumptive conclusion that these few would put to shame many, or maybe you are implying the entire lower class US, is absurd.

then, you stated yourself that you hadn't performed any written / reading tests?? what if that taxi driver can't read Dr Seuss? or write about the history of Haloween? that doesn't put my fellow Americans to shame.

last year i had a Mexican student (adult) that had a very very high level of spoken English. but, he couldn't spell volcano, go left, back, nothing. he couldn't listen, write, or hardly read. does that put us to shame?

like i said before, i had 1600 students in 5 years, and i can honestly say, only 5 or 6 were "on par" with US Highschool students. same when i taught in Paraguay. same story in Brazil.

i noticed you taught in Spain for 3 years. how many of those students could sit in a philosophy class at Boston University and take notes?? 2?

below are some links for books on reason:
they're not too expensive, hope you enjoy

http://www.amazon.com/Constructing-Arguments-Avoiding-Falacies-Substitue/dp/0534623441/ref=sr_1_1/002-4568088-1020026?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1190120588&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Constructing-Arguments-Avoiding-Falacies-Substitue/dp/0534623441/ref=sr_1_1/002-4568088-1020026?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1190120588&sr=1-1

[grahamb]

Once again you misquote me:
"how can "a few" doctors, nurses, tour guides (less than many) put to shame "many" native English speakers?? many could mean thousands, or are we talking millions?"
Here's what I said:
"On my trips to Cuba I have met Cuban English teachers, translators, tour guides, medical professionals, journalists, taxi drivers, agricultural workers and a friend who until recently was a professional layabout."
Where exactly did I say "a few"? Do you have a problem with quantifiers, or are you just plain ignorant?
And then you say this:
"but, then to make a presumptive conclusion that these few would put to shame many, or maybe you are implying the entire lower class US, is absurd."
I didn't imply anything about US English speakers. You know perfectly well that I was referring to native speakers regardless of their nationality. Here's what I actually said:
"Why do you assume that native English speaker = American? English is the first language of most people in the UK, Ireland, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. There are quite a few native speakers in South Africa as well. When I talk about native speakers that means anyone whose first language is English."
You are the one drawing presumptive conclusions when you assume that native speaker = American. That's incredibly arrogant.
You obviously can't argue your case without misquoting me or distorting what I say. Is that your idea of a reasoned argument?

[john_n_carolina]

well, you have a point that i left out the part about native English = American. in my last reply, my computer crashed, and i lost that reply. i had in my original reply that i was only going to speak for native American English, not the rest of the world.

aside from that, do you assume that im that arrogant to think native Engish = American and not UK or NZ??

anyways, it's obvious you aren't going to modify or retract your statement about "put to shame" native English speakers. when i taught in L.America, i never would have said something like this. i might say, "her / his English is very good, high level"....but to compare to any native, and then to go one step farther and claim that we would hang our heads in shame??

like i said before, the Mexican man that i taught last year had a very very high level of speaking. then, when we sat down a little more he couldn't spell table...couldn't spell refrigerator...couldn't spell passport...couldn't watch CNN (too fast). does that put me to shame?? don't think so....

the people that you met - could they listen to Beatles Sgt. Pepper and actually understand more than 4 words? could they write a 10 page paper on European Imperialism in Africa in less than 5 weeks? could that agricultural worker hold a lecture on the role of the Catholic Church during the English Revolution?? can they pronounce 3,333 and be understandable??

ill retract my posts about coconut juice sellers, cornbread vendors, and Cuban pitchers, etc....that's not fair, and unfounded. but until you modify or retract your "put to shame" post, without any in-depth assessment, ill refrain from this post.

[Henry_Cowell]

[grahamb]

Mmm... understanding four words of Sgt Pepper or doing an IELTS test? That's a tough one, but I think I'll stick with IELTS. Most teachers would regard the latter as a more reliable means of measuring English language competence.
No, my Cuban friends couldn't write a 10-page paper on European Imperialism in Africa in less than 5 weeks, nor could they hold a lecture on the role of the Catholic Church during the English Revolution. I don't suppose I could either for that matter; the tasks in question require knowledge of the subject matter in addition to a certain level of proficiency in English. That should be obvious, surely?
By the way, "refrain from this post" is an error of collocation: you may refrain from making further comments or refrain from posting.

[john_n_carolina]

well grahamb, you think im that ignorant that i don't know all the verb forms, conjugations, etc?? as far as your buddy above your post, i could shoot holes in his grammar also.

do you think if i saw this sentence:

Please refrain feeding the ducks. Thank You.
Please refrain walking on the wet cement. Thank You.

i wouldn't notice the problem??

the great part about the internet, eslcafe.com, etc is that you can write however you want, slang-wise, bad grammar,

because NO ONE is reading these posts. especially not this one.

btw: i talked to my Cuban co-teacher at my highschool, and she confirmed that there are VERY FEW Cubans that would put to shame any Americans, as a whole package (R,L,S,W,Comprehension, Humor). Even if Britney Spears thinks Canada is OVERSEAS, she can still read the top 5 Yahoo headlines and understand them or the back of a cereal box.

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