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notamiss
Joined: 20 Jun 2007
Posts: 908
Location: El 5o pino del la CDMX
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 Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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Re the myth(?) of machismo, I heard of a very interesting-sounding book on that topic called The Meanings of Macho by Matthew Gutmann (which I hope to read one day); see http://www2.eluniversal.com.mx/pls/impreso/noticia.html?id_nota=35034&tabla=articulos.
Here's a quote from the linked article:
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| But don�t expect much analysis of the social and psychological development of machismo, �the supposed cultural trait of Mexican men that is at once so famous and yet so thoroughly unknown.� Gutmann has come to bury machismo, not to praise it. Two of the goals of his study, he writes, are �the deconstruction of hollow clich�s about Mexican masculinity,� and to provide �a potent antidote to the notion that especially virulent strains of sexism are to be found only in Mexico.� A good indication of how shaky the ground is under the macho myth is how ill defined the term is in the first place. Everybody �knows� that such a thing exists, but getting a definition out of them is something else. [...]We can recognize in these behaviors good and bad traits of men anywhere in the world. Put a Mexican face on any combination of them, however, and it becomes �macho� and is assumed to be a national characteristic. Gutmann is not above placing some of the blame on his fellow ethnographers, who sometimes start with the notion that there is such a thing as �the Mexican man,� when in fact there are more than 50 million Mexican men, each with his own story. �What scholars who spend most of their time talking to a small number of people usually write about are stories of the lives of just those few people. The appeal to generalize from this small group is intoxicating but usually best resisted.� |
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corporatehuman
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 198
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:01 am Post subject: |
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In Mexico City I have been amazed at the 'lack of machismo.'
In Chiapas it was EVERYWHERE and saturated, defined, controlled everyday life!
I don't know; is it machismo when people advertise for secretaries in Mexico like
Secretaria
MUY GUAPA DEBE SER BIEN ATRACTIVA. NO EXPERIENCIA NECESSARIA! SOLAMENTE DEJA UN FOTO. 25 y MENOS
Lots of advertisements like these have made me wonder?? My girlfriend once went to one ad like this and she was told that she was
THE MOST ATTRACTIVE PERSON TO COME TO THE JOB
however they could not offer it to her b/c they had to hold out to see if ANYONE else better looking came. Anyway she didn't take the job based on this reason (that they required nothing of her but looks) which is good...but well, I find this to be a very SAD fact.
Some advertisements are even more deceptive.
Chris |
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TheLongWayHome
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Posts: 1016
Location: San Luis Piojosi
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| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| corporatehuman wrote: |
Secretaria
MUY GUAPA DEBE SER BIEN ATRACTIVA. NO EXPERIENCIA NECESSARIA! SOLAMENTE DEJA UN FOTO. 25 y MENOS |
In SLP they're a bit more subtle:
Secretaria, 'buena presentacion', 'soltera', entre 19 y 25 a�os - which still translates as hot, single and young. |
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Prof.Gringo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Dang Cong San Viet Nam Quang Vinh Muon Nam!
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Oh, how I love those adds! Just pick up a copy of a Mexican newspaper (El Universal) and turn to the help wanted ads. Now if you really want to have a good laugh, read a copy of Mexico's labor and discrimination laws along with it. You see that the problem in a place like Mexico is not that they don't have laws, they are just not enforced or only enforced selectively. Also the culture of shoulder shrugging tends to contribute to nothing much ever changing here. Civil rights in the US have not been gained and defended by shoulder shruggers. |
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cangringo
Joined: 18 Jan 2007
Posts: 327
Location: Vancouver, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| I am not sure how people can say there is a lack of machismo here...it's alive and well. It may not be apparent on the outside but it's definitely lurking under the surface. So I wouldn't count that as a misconception. |
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Samantha
Joined: 25 Oct 2003
Posts: 2038
Location: Mexican Riviera
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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Prof.Gringo wrote:
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| Civil rights in the US have not been gained and defended by shoulder shruggers. |
[picture me shrugging my shoulders] I'm content that Mexico isn't the USA. The "Nanny Society" is alive and well north of the border. People are constantly stressed out. The absence of that here in Mexico is refreshing. |
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Phil_K
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2041
Location: A World of my Own
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Amen to that. Although with things like the smoking ban perhaps there are moves in the nanny-state direction. But we all know that, like the new reglamento de transito, these things are policed for the first few weeks, and then forgotten. |
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dixie
Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 644
Location: D.F
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Although with things like the smoking ban |
Smoking ban??  What smoking ban?? |
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dixie
Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 644
Location: D.F
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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| I am not sure how people can say there is a lack of machismo here...it's alive and well. |
Can you explain where you see it so "alive and well"? I don�t doubt you see it, but I cannot really think of a time when living here, or in Torreon where I saw it "alive and well".
I�m also wondering if it exists as strongly as we (forgeiners) think it exists, or if we just see gender roles as more divided here (in Mexico) because we go looking for it (rather than "back home"). |
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Phil_K
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2041
Location: A World of my Own
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| dixie wrote: |
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| Although with things like the smoking ban |
Smoking ban?? What smoking ban?? |
Point proven! |
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Dragonlady
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 720
Location: Chillinfernow, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:22 am Post subject: |
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deleted
unrelated to TESOL
Last edited by Dragonlady on Sun Sep 26, 2010 6:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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TheLongWayHome
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Posts: 1016
Location: San Luis Piojosi
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:36 am Post subject: |
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| dixie wrote: |
| I�m also wondering if it exists as strongly as we (forgeiners) think it exists, or if we just see gender roles as more divided here (in Mexico) because we go looking for it (rather than "back home"). |
I don't know, I once saw a guy laying into a woman in the street. And then there's the typical macho student in class that thinks hitting women is 'teaching' them or being a real man or some such drivel like that. I'm sure it happens back home too, we're just not famous for it like they are here. |
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Samantha
Joined: 25 Oct 2003
Posts: 2038
Location: Mexican Riviera
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:48 am Post subject: |
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I'd also like to see these "machismo" comments expounded on. It would be interesting to know what Cangringo and Corporatehuman consider to be machismo behavior and how it's different from male chauvinism where they come from. I don't know where "back home" is for LWH but there are plenty of big jerks where I come from. Mexico doesn't corner the market here. I believe said behavior relates to lack of education and that is a world-wide issue, not a Mexico issue.
I have taught male students here for a long time, and never have I had a boy, teen or real man in one of my classes think it was cool to hit a woman to teach her a lesson. Ha! Au contraire. I am married to a Mexican and we socialize almost exclusively with Mexican friends and family. There is no hint of this "machismo" that is being referred to as the norm here. Jerks are jerks worldwide and for every jerk there is a nice guy. I swear, sometimes I think I live in a different Mexico.  Dixie made excellent observations in her post above. I think she is right on. |
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TheLongWayHome
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Posts: 1016
Location: San Luis Piojosi
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Samantha wrote: |
| I have taught male students here for a long time, and never have I had a boy, teen or real man in one of my classes think it was cool to hit a woman to teach her a lesson. |
Of course not. You're a female teacher. I think you'd be shocked at what comes out when there are male students and a male teacher.
In fact, the last class in which I heard a comment like that was actually mixed. The difference is that I wouldn't expect to hear that kind of comment in the same situation back home.
| Samantha wrote: |
| I am married to a Mexican and we socialize almost exclusively with Mexican friends and family. There is no hint of this "machismo" that is being referred to as the norm here. |
So am I. For that reason you should know that how things seem and how things are, are two completely different things here. |
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Samantha
Joined: 25 Oct 2003
Posts: 2038
Location: Mexican Riviera
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| As I said, my friend, I think I live in a different Mexico than you do. In fact as I enter my 8th year here, I am pretty sure I do. |
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