Job Discussion Forums

[bearcanada]

"Which country in the world would you like to visit?" "Most have no idea or connection at all about the world beyond China, except for Yao Ming and KFC.

"Where is a good place to buy clothing in your town?" I'm amazed at how many different students were completely baffled by this question.

And so on and so on. I don't really know if it's a lack of knowledge or a lack of basic communicative ability, but I've found conversation classes near impossible with Chinese students."

"I found it interesting that my students were willing to write about personal experiences such as their fears, their happiest moments, their most memorable friends or relatives. ...... my Chinese students reveled in relating personal experiences. "

The above are quotes from other threads but they share an important point - which is the answer to the question above about a lack of knowledge or lack of ability to communicate.

Try to understand what you're dealing with; think where these students have come from. They've emerged from a system where the first 20 years of their lives were more or less spent cramming for a university entrance exam, one which doesn't deal with the attractions of foreign countries or places to shop.

I had a student in Shanghai, a medical doctor (anesthesiologist), age 40 and unmarried, and I was helping her get through her IELTS written exam. I gave her a topic about whether children should be spanked, and she was unable to even begin writing.

She has no children, few of her friends have children, she had never done any babysitting or had to deal with small children in any meaningful way. She simply had NO knowledge and no opinions formed, and was helpless. I had the same experience with her on other topics that would have produced an easy essay in the Western world.

All of her attention through most of her life had been on things that were necessary. She knew virtually no geopgrapy, philosophy, psychology, nothing outside her field. She had more or less been taught to abandon those interests to focus on the essentials of a high entrance exam mark and getting her degree.

The reason students fall silent when asked to discuss subjects like those in the quotations above, is because they have no knowledge, no reference point, no opinions. They aren't lazy or uncooperative; their minds are blank, and you will embarrass and humiliate them if you push for responses.

In a class of 25 of your peers, how would you feel if I put a question to you about the 20-year inflation potential of the Bank of China's RMB policies - and demanded an intelligent response? Would it help your standing in the class if I told you that any school kid in my home country could address that question?

The reason these students revel in relating their personal experiences (or dreams) is because that is one of the very few things they know anything about. They haven't had a chance to learn and experience much else.

I have spent countless hours with students in their 20s, looking over maps of the World and of China, telling stories and giving information to sponges. It was all news to them.

The reference above about places to purchase clothing is the same. I have a good friend in Shanghai who is 30 years old and a Finance Manager for a good-sized foreign company. The same question put to him would draw a blank because he has never had to buy his own clothes. His mother has always done it for him - and still does. As my medical friend knows only medicine, he knows only finance (and KTV).

The educational system and the one-child-spoiled-rotten policy have conspired to insulate this generation from the many thousands of small life experiences that we Westerners have. And in so many areas, these young people are simply a blank slate.

They don't deserve to be mocked, insulted and condemned for that. It isn't their fault and, in the same place, we (with all our sarcasm and contempt intact) would be the same.

.

[chia48]

In one of my most successful conversation classes I got students (sophomores) in small groups, writing out their own topics. Then I put all their papers in a bag and went around the class letting them draw out one paper (making sure it wasn't their own).

The result was quite a range of topics, from questions about 'what would you do if your boyfriend/girlfriend ........etc.' - to the
Taiwan situation. The students were all quite enthusiastic with their responses. I hadn't found this group particularly co-operative, but the energy in the class was a lot better than it usually is when I supply the topics.

I don't really think I can do the same thing week after week, but so far it has worked the best. Actually I am thinking about how to get them into doing drama - short plays, skits, writing their own scripts.

Has anyone had any experience doing this?

[Nemesis]

[bearcanada]

Nemesis, I can scarcely imagine a less intelligent response to my post. At least it's clear your sarcasm and contempt are intact.

Who on earth suggested anything like your 'mesmerising'? Are you smoking something? Re-read the post. It identified the root of a problem that many, including yourself, have identified. And many, including yourself, have said, "I don't really know if it's a lack of knowledge or a lack of basic communicative ability....".

I outlined the problem, nothing more, and certainly I made no stupid suggestions about how to deal with it.

And, contrary to your disclaimer, many of the posts on this board are openly comtemptuous of these students who deserve better.

Your comments added nothing to the thread except the chance to derail it and have it locked.

.

[kev7161]

I just really and truly disagree with the OP. Ten years ago this may have been true but in this modern age of internet and DVDs and other western influences there are certainly a host of topics that students can identify with and SHOULD be able to talk about - - if nothing else, comparing life in China with (at least the perception of) "western" life is rife with possibilities.

We all know that there are several 'net sites that China blocks but there are also numerous news websites that you and I and your average coddled Chinese child can access. These days there are many stories coming from beyond its border about China and it's successes/failures if students cared to peruse them. I was just at the DVD store and saw Michael Moore's "Sicko" for sale. Not to get into a pro or anti-Moore debate but why can't your high school or adult students watch a video like this and talk about it (agree or disagree)? How does it compare with health care in China? There are a TON of western restaurants in most major cities. It's not an earth-shaking topic but surely your "average" Chinese student has experienced more than KFC or, if not, why not? What is the good/bad when it comes to eating western-style fast foods (WE know the answers - - what do they think?). Are there unhealthy Chinese fast foods they can talk about (you know, "educate" you, their foreign guest)?

If students of, say, 16 to 25 REALLY want to get their heads out of their typical Chinese lives, there are many outlets. If I can go into a foreign bookstore in China and buy "Time" or "Newsweek" to get a dose of world news and events, then so can they. The simple fact is that, currently, many schools across China start kids with English learning at earlier ages. If they can sit in a classroom for 10 years (or whatever) and not even pick up the simplest of phrases; if they can have a half-dozen foreign teachers in recent years of their education who (we hope) are trying to drag them out into the sunlight - - and they still can't formulate a few sentences or an opinion beyond which kind of steamed bun to have for breakfast, then all we're doing is spinning in circles!

Quite frankly, there are so many students who just don't care about things beyond their mobile phones and their video games. They're not interested in politics because they have an imagined government who takes care of all their needs. They don't fret about Taiwan or Tibet or Japan or any other neighbor because, well, why bother? They've been told that China is right and everyone else is wrong and they believe it. I do agree that testing and more testing dulls their senses, but there are enlightment options out there if they choose to pursue them. Most don't seem to want to.

[seperley]

There was no sarcasm or anything derogatory in my reply about my students being able to write about their personal experiences. If you haven't been to an American college during the past twenty years, you may be interested to know that one current writing pedagogical strategy includes the personal reflection.

Not one student felt slighted. Instead, some of the students observed that their own teachers had not asked them to comment upon their own lives. Some were willing to share some interesting private thoughts, and they were quite articulate in their expression.

So what's the problem here?

Is your remark some sort of indignation-by-proxy?

[bearcanada]

Kevin, you made some very thoughtful comments and I must say I agree with all of them.

One of your last sentences contained it all when you said "if they're interested....". They aren't. And for that I have no explanation.

My medical student said exactly that when I finally put the questions to her. She just said, "I'm not interested in any of that stuff."

I dearly wish I could understand this, but so far the cause eludes me. I cannot understand the lack of curiosity, the absence of even a small bit of interest sometimes.

I'm sure that part of it is the cultural attitude in raising children because I see signs of these problems at an early age. The kids are taught to think only of their homework and someday passing an examination, and are sheltered from all else. They don't have to think, they don't have to clean their rooms...... Almost all children have a natural curiosity, but somewhere in all of this, it gets lost or is killed.

If you have other insights into this, I would love to hear them.

.

[bearcanada]

Seperly, I missed seeing your post. Sorry. I'm not sure how you read anything unpleasant into my comment about your post. I just said the reason the students enjoy writing about their experiences is because that's one place where they have some knowledge. Nothing more than that. I read your initial post as being devoid of slights and mine was intended to be the same. My apologies if that wasn't clear.

.

[johnchina]

I do love the way the OP criticises others for their mocking, insulting and condemning of students, then jumps right in and does the same to a person who responds.

Kindly tell us what is so stupid, contemptuous and sarcastic about Nemesis' post.

[AussieGuyInChina]

I fully understand and totally agree with bearcanada's message.

Spontaneous conversation activities can help to build students' confidence and help to improve their fluency only if the students are au fait with the subject matter. If, due to lack of knowledge, students are unable to discuss the matter in their mother-tongue, expecting them to do so in a foreign language is ludicrous.

As to the students' lack of general knowledge, I reflect back on my college days. My interests were: girls, Saturday night activities, cars and sports. The only sections of newspapers I read were the sports section and the funnies. The only books I read were those required to be read as part of my studies. The only knowledge that I actively acquired (not knowledge acquired passively or by happenchance) was through research required as part of my studies.

In this regard, my experience is that most university / college students here in China undertake research diligently (and, yes, there are some students who plagiarize) and are able to offer opinions after they have acquired some knowledge of the subject matter.

[SnoopBot]

[Anda]

I get my students to read a short story after me and then do a written conversation based on the story on the blackboard which I start off. The stories are two to four pages long.

Most of my students can now come up with fairly good replies.

This weeks starting paragraph goes like this:

Sue: I hate you Tom I wish you were dead. You are the worst brother a girl could have. Why don't you jump in front of a speeding truck and make me happy.
Tom:

[Nemesis]

[OGFT]

[kev7161]

Actually, I'm only a 40 something, thanks. Let's see, when I was in high school I was on a debate team and wrote for the school's newspaper. I won't claim I was savvy on all things social and political but I was aware of the goings on of the world around me. I watched news and read newspapers due to the fact I was on the school's paper and it was required. I was involved in a host of clubs and other extracurricular activities. I read comics and Stephen King novels and a variety of other things to wile away my time.

I'm in no way insinuating that every student in China needs to be politically active and socially aware. What I'm saying is there is a wealth of information out there for almost any interest. There was no internet when I was in high school and I lived in a town of 10,000 so it certainly wasn't the hub of social conciousness but I managed to show a little interest. By the way, I took Spanish for 3 years (1st year mandatory, next two because I wanted to) and I STILL remember quite a bit of words and simple phrases. I wouldn't be able to carry on a detailed conversation, but give me a few months with a tutor and I bet I'd be further along then most students we seem to find here who've been studying English for 10 years!

PS: I don't study Chinese but I'll bet you a shiny yuan that I can cobble togther more simple Chinese sentences than your typical, apathetic Chinese student can in English!