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Shan-Shan
Joined: 28 Aug 2003
Posts: 1074
Location: electric pastures
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 Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:13 am Post subject: |
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Any of you check out the latest new Foreign Expert License requirements that just came out? I don't think it looks good for the FT's.
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Could you provide a link, or some rock-solid hearsay? Is a PhD, ten years experience (eight of which must be in China) and a happy disposition the new requirements?
I saw an ad -- before the recent NOVA crisis -- for Japan stating about the same:
* 32 years old or younger
* five years experience (in Japan)
* Minimum MA/MEd with a focus on TESOL |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:41 am Post subject: |
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on another thread, i've posted a link to a province's new regulations, but there are a few other provinces that've got similar updates in their foreign experts deals...i've also posted nanning (guanxi) new regulations in chinese and that on a thread called something like "new restrictions on foreign workers in southern china"..check it out
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The big question? When will the Chinese figure out that they can earn a buck off of us and do the same thing? Require us to take "Chinese Cultural and Marxism classes " before we can teach? Maybe charge us 5000-10,000 RMB per class?
I'm telling ALL of YOU this is going to be the next step in the future for us, I bet you a 6 pack of YangJing beer! |
i am in 
now, i bet the chinese EF centers will get their share of problems with those new regulations if enforced...i can see the chinese EF recruiting department adjusting their job interview guidelines (questions) as we speak 
peace to marx as well as the EF founder
and
cheers and beers to YangJing beer  |
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SnoopBot
Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 740
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Shan-Shan wrote: |
| Quote: |
Any of you check out the latest new Foreign Expert License requirements that just came out? I don't think it looks good for the FT's.
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Could you provide a link, or some rock-solid hearsay? Is a PhD, ten years experience (eight of which must be in China) and a happy disposition the new requirements?
I saw an ad -- before the recent NOVA crisis -- for Japan stating about the same:
* 32 years old or younger
* five years experience (in Japan)
* Minimum MA/MEd with a focus on TESOL |
This above is about impossible, how many meet all of those requirements?
For the China changes.
Here is the translation someone posted on the other thread. I will post here as that thread was in the "non-job related" postings.
http://www.fjrs.gov.cn:8558/html/9/446/13009_200792699.html
Let me know if it doesn't work. Some highlights from the translation my wife did. Her comments after reading it.
according to this rule, they are cheated (foreign teacher)
maybe china will be worse for foreign teacher- her words
foreign teacher get part -time job must let the school agree, otherwise teacher have no rights to find part-time job - this part was not included in the English translation but in the Chinese one.
They do not really get into qualification requirements, most of it is designed to keep you from doing a runner, preventing a FT from working private jobs, and puts the FT at the mercy of a shoddy abusive school.
I see a system being put in place to blacklist teachers. This could work 2-ways:
1: Clean up the bad FT's in China and drive them out- a good thing
2. Allow us to be abused and cheated more because of the new power the schools will have over us concerning release recommendation letters.- bad
It seems in the future it will be very important for the FT's that want to stay in China, to do their homework when picking a reputable school to work for. |
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Noelle
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 361
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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Wow. Sounds like China is becoming more and more like Korea in recruiting foreign teachers. I also think it could be a good thing but I hate to see them make it impossible for teachers to work part-time outside their contracts.
In Korea this is completely illegal and very restricting. Though many people do it anyway, the consequences are not good if caught... visas cancelled, teachers deported, passports flagged etc...
When I was in China, I worked full-time for an EF school and taught part-time at a university in Zhejiang. I loved it. My EF school owner approved it so long as it didn't interfere with my other job and she actually encouraged me to work in the university saying "it will help you network and looks good on a CV". I've got a feeling that regardless of whatever kind of new policy they try to implement in China, it could still be left up to the individual school as to whether or not the teacher is allowed to work part-time.
In Korea, things are organized well enough that once the we're granted a certain type of visa, we're owned here until we leave the country. In China, I can't imagine the system to be nearly as organized... |
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OGFT
Joined: 24 Jun 2006
Posts: 432
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| Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:10 am Post subject: |
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| foreign teacher get part -time job must let the school agree, otherwise teacher have no rights to find part-time job |
This is normal in most countries that allow non native workers. Your visa/rp is always tied to your job. Local requirement s may also require the PSB to be informed. |
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SnoopBot
Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 740
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:37 am Post subject: |
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| Noelle wrote: |
Wow. Sounds like China is becoming more and more like Korea in recruiting foreign teachers. I also think it could be a good thing but I hate to see them make it impossible for teachers to work part-time outside their contracts.
In Korea this is completely illegal and very restricting. Though many people do it anyway, the consequences are not good if caught... visas cancelled, teachers deported, passports flagged etc...
When I was in China, I worked full-time for an EF school and taught part-time at a university in Zhejiang. I loved it. My EF school owner approved it so long as it didn't interfere with my other job and she actually encouraged me to work in the university saying "it will help you network and looks good on a CV". I've got a feeling that regardless of whatever kind of new policy they try to implement in China, it could still be left up to the individual school as to whether or not the teacher is allowed to work part-time.
In Korea, things are organized well enough that once the we're granted a certain type of visa, we're owned here until we leave the country. In China, I can't imagine the system to be nearly as organized... |
Sounds like you had a cool director there. What often happens in China is the admin at the primary-school would turn a blind eye teaching at other schools for extra money as long as that primary job came first. Some stated "NO outside work" right in there contracts. In the last year, I've notice a trend of the primary-hired schools to push FT's past their 20 hour contract weeks. I often taught close to 30 hours a week. Of course I was getting overtime pay for 120-150 an hour.
Here is the latest trend: The primary-hired school would pay you the standard flat salary of 20 hours a week (or whatever) and then REDUCE the overtime hourly wages to less than 80 rmb an hour or increase non-paid office hours. Most teachers could turn down these lower paying hours forcing the schools to hire additional teachers. The FT's would then go off on their own and make at least +150 an hour doing privates (after turning down their primary schools reduced overtime hours)
Now, it looks like you will be required to get permission to teach privates from your primary school, they have the ability to demand YOU ACCEPT THESE LOWER-PAID overtime hours at that school first.
If they want to be jerks about it, they can NEVER allow you to accept outside privates forcing you to do all of their overtime hours first- of course at a much reduced wage than you would be paid finding your own privates to do.
I'll bet another 6-pack of YangJing beer that some will get the shaft exactly how I described above. Now the schools have the power over what overtime private jobs you can accept. You know darn well they would rather force you to work their overtime hours first before you ever get the chance to do privates. They can hire less teachers, and give you the additional hours if they think you have the energy to teach past 20 hours. They can save money by doing this method outlined above.
I always like to read these new rules and regulations then put myself in the Chinese mindset to see how one can exploit the situation for more $.
In this case we can be more exploited than before, on a positive note my wife believes this policy was drafted only for Fujian Province. Has anyone seen this new draft delivered to their regions too? Will it be the same or is the same?
Anyone know? |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:52 am Post subject: |
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| OGFT wrote: |
| Quote: |
| foreign teacher get part -time job must let the school agree, otherwise teacher have no rights to find part-time job |
This is normal in most countries that allow non native workers. Your visa/rp is always tied to your job. Local requirement s may also require the PSB to be informed. |
absolutely
| Quote: |
| Wow. Sounds like China is becoming more and more like Korea in recruiting foreign teachers. |
wow..sounds like you know a lot...are you talkin' about DPRK there 
| Quote: |
| When I was in China, I worked full-time for an EF school and taught part-time at a university in Zhejiang. I loved it. My EF school owner approved it so long as it didn't interfere with my other job and she actually encouraged me to work in the university saying "it will help you network and looks good on a CV". |
you cracked my rear end yet again
peace to the valuable experiences and CVs of some
and
cheers and beers to the honorable title of an EF DoS that makes a great difference in any EF center in this lovely country |
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Horizontal Hero
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 2492
Location: The civilised little bit of China.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:09 am Post subject: |
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| DIPTESOL wrote: |
Housing is not included with this particular school apparently.
The workload is 40 hours per week.
Is it worth it? |
Sometimes I think ESLers are totally out of touch with reality. 40 hours a week is a tough gig? That is standard work hours in most countries. When I was DOS I regulary put in 12 hour days, Mon-Fri. I did an advanced degree on top of that and studied Chinese as well. Even found time for a girfriend. Mind you I was too stuffed most of the time to give her the full service... 
40 hours a week won't kill you. Trust me. |
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vikuk
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:48 am Post subject: |
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| That is standard work hours in most countries. When I was DOS I regulary put in 12 hour days |
wow that sounds a great reason to come to china - to be just like the overworked folk back home
But wait a minute - don't those folk back home do those long hours for the finacial benefits of good overtime pay (those debts have to be serviced ya know) and maybe enhancing a long-term career.
What on earth would induce ordinary FT's - even with the EF DOS title - to work those type of hours in a low-paying dead-end job in China 
Maybe the honor of being able to write - I was tough, I was able to stick it out |
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Silent Shadow
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 380
Location: A stones throw past the back of beyond
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:55 am Post subject: |
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[quote]Sometimes I think ESLers are totally out of touch with reality. 40 hours a week is a tough gig? That is standard work hours in most countries. When I was DOS I regulary put in 12 hour days, Mon-Fri. I did an advanced degree on top of that and studied Chinese as well. Even found time for a girfriend. Mind you I was too stuffed most of the time to give her the full service...
40 hours a week won't kill you. Trust me.[/quote]
Sorry, I'm new here. I haven't figured out how the quote system works, yet.
I Think the point that the OP was trying to make is not that it was a tough gig, but whether it was worth doing it for the salary paid. I think most of us have worked similar hours back home. I'm also sure most of us would have expected an adequate salary or wage to go along with it, too.
So the question is: Is EF paying a high enough salary for the hours that are required? |
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vikuk
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:49 am Post subject: |
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I Think the point that the OP was trying to make is not that it was a tough gig, but whether it was worth doing it for the salary paid. I think most of us have worked similar hours back home. I'm also sure most of us would have expected an adequate salary or wage to go along with it, too.
So the question is: Is EF paying a high enough salary for the hours that are required? |
That kind of thinking brings us to the concept of using China EFL as means of making an everyday living - and if that logic is further stretched to thinking over changing from a job/career back home for one in China EFL - then we also have to include: providing and building for a future.
In this - ex-pat employment type scenario - the ordinary EF positions paying their 5,000RMB/month type wages are a total joke. And the DOS wages listed here, for Shanghai - are also something that would be viewed in an ordinary ex-pat sense as very very bottom of the barrel!!!!
So then we should think of EF jobs as a means to live in, and explore China (the working holiday concept) - but at 40 hours/week - your time and energy for this maybe rather eroded |
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OGFT
Joined: 24 Jun 2006
Posts: 432
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:40 am Post subject: |
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| So the question is: Is EF paying a high enough salary for the hours that are required? |
A big fat NO. |
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simrishamn
Joined: 13 Oct 2007
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| DIPTESOL - did you end up accepting the position or not? |
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SnoopBot
Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 740
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| vikuk wrote: |
| Quote: |
I Think the point that the OP was trying to make is not that it was a tough gig, but whether it was worth doing it for the salary paid. I think most of us have worked similar hours back home. I'm also sure most of us would have expected an adequate salary or wage to go along with it, too.
So the question is: Is EF paying a high enough salary for the hours that are required? |
That kind of thinking brings us to the concept of using China EFL as means of making an everyday living - and if that logic is further stretched to thinking over changing from a job/career back home for one in China EFL - then we also have to include: providing and building for a future.
In this - ex-pat employment type scenario - the ordinary EF positions paying their 5,000RMB/month type wages are a total joke. And the DOS wages listed here, for Shanghai - are also something that would be viewed in an ordinary ex-pat sense as very very bottom of the barrel!!!!
So then we should think of EF jobs as a means to live in, and explore China (the working holiday concept) - but at 40 hours/week - your time and energy for this maybe rather eroded |
You would expect this position would pay at least double that a regular FT gets. Also 40 hours is a lot of time if it is all in the classroom. Those are long days if it is all teaching. I've taught 40 hours a week and it is difficult if you are expected to perform and entertain that whole time.
So let's see with housing cost free and just salary. I would say...
Average 20 hour salary of 6000 RMB a month X2 = 12,000 a month.
Now this is a DOS position so this should be paid at least 20% higher than average FT = another 2,500 a month. Then you have Shanghai expenses = another 3,000 for COLA = 17,500
Now if you have an advanced education that is supposed to pay more. (We all know how this works) A dip in Tesol is a 1-year program right?
So should be more than 17,500 RMB a month for a 40-hour week, in Shanghai.
Anything less might be worse than just being a regular FT that can teach privates at a higher wage.
I would accept a DOS job that paid lower only if the upper-management is good, and the position is a real position and not a window dressing fraudster position (White guy to fool FT's to be cheated by the owners). I would take it for the valuable experience it could give me.
But as others have mentioned many of these positions are Dog and Pony positions to make it look like Western leaders are in charge of the management to fool potential FT's to accept positions in a "western managed Environment" or parents into paying extra for having western leadership.
You need to check into the organization carefully first. |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 6:46 am Post subject: |
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western leadership in chinese EF
this thread's draggin' on all about money as it seems...sounds like we're in this esl biz for the same as those massage parlor girls showin' us their desperate looks when we're walkin' by'em
laundry machines're for clothes...do they need the grease
we might be greasin' this EF one
peace to lovely DoS posts as well as the ch-western leadership of EF centers around china
and
cheers and beers to the laowai farts in the EF head office that help to grease the machine
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i love emoticons |
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