Job Discussion Forums

[latefordinner]

admires the "intelligent students", plural? You mean there's more than one?

[johnchina]

I'm not convinced by the 'burnout' argument. Yes, it certainly applies to some students, but I see plenty of students spending their after-school time having fun with their friends, chatting, playing sports or computer games. I think this "studying 10 hours a day" stuff is yet another example of how Chinese people like to see Chinese students, rather than how it actually is.

[Nemesis]

[bearcanada]

If I may ask, what exactly is the point of all the aggressive, juvenile, flaming posts, and all the nonsense that appear on this board? They serve only to derail every intelligent thread that exists here. What is the source of all the hostility that leads to the incessant China-bashing?

I (and others) have so often begun serious threads on germane and useful topics that, with considered contributions, could have made a difference to many teachers in China. But so often they get derailed by foolishness and insults � to either the poster or to China and its people.

To suggest that we don't need to understand the reasons behind our own difficulties and should have a 'mindset' that it's someone else's problem is unbelievable foolishness. If we want to teach here these ARE our problems, and we need to understand the context and circumstance and learn to deal with them.

There are reasons for the things we encounter, but we will have nothing but trouble if we take refuge in our 'superiority' and try to cope in ignorance. It doesn't help us to make childish comments about dancing monkeys and lazy, good-for-nothing children whose parents are pigs.

Nor does it help us to whine about greedy, dishonest employers. We have one frequent poster on this board who last semester collected his full airfare upfront from a school, then did a midnight run a few weeks later - and then recently started a post about his new school's 'lack of ethics'. I've seen nothing to indicate that his school's 'ethics' are any worse than his own.

China has no shortage of good teaching positions for serious teachers. And yes, people will take advantage of us if we're innocent, uninformed and naive, but if you are still a 'dancing monkey' after your first semester you have no one to blame but yourself. Nobody can take advantage of you or abuse you, unless you let them. Nobody can cheat you unless you let them.

China is not the US. It had the Mongols killing everbody in sight, the Japanese invasion and widespread slaughter , the British and French distributing opium on a grand scale - virtually eviscerating the country's entire social infrastructure and setting China back 60 or 70 years in the process. It was largely from this that China had Chiang Kai Shek and Mao.

China has also been blessed with a substantial American contribution, from supporting Chiang and interfering in Taiwan to the CIA bankrolling Tibetan independence. Where the hell do you people get off, coming back now to heap indignity and gross abuse on the people that your own governments have indignified and abused on a much grander scale? If you're having trouble in the classroom, maybe you should thank your congressman. If this were my country, many of us wouldn't be here.

Remember that for most of the last millenium China was a major world trading power and if not for the interference of the 'Dancing Monkeys', this country would have acquired first-world status by the 1950s. As it is, China went from a near-destitute third-world nation to a rapidly-developing country in less than 20 years, and they did it without our white-faced help.

It might be helpful to recognise that this country has not achieved what it has done in the recent past, on the foundation of a people who are as dishonest, stupid and apathetic as described in various threads on this board. The Chinese are intelligent, clever and industrious. They work harder than anyone in the world except the Japanese - and a hell of a lot harder than Americans and Englishmen. To accuse the Chinese people of being lazy and apathetic is merely stupid.

Having said all of that, it is true that young Chinese people have a rather thin collection of life experiences, some lack of interest - or at least an inability to quickly relate to outside information. I agree with johnchina that burn-out isn't by any means the whole story, but maybe if we continue to explore the topic we can identify the remaining ingredients.

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[johnchina]

Sorry, Bearcanada, but I have to disagree with your last post on several points.

1. On this thread at least, you clearly started the flaming and insults. I posted asking you to explain yourself and you didn't.

2. I love the way that I (as a Westerner) am constantly expected to "understand" where everyone else is coming from, whilst no-one is expected to understand where I am (or people like me are) coming from. I'm expected to "understand" the little sods from rich families who "intercourse" around with their mobiles during my class, but they are not expected to understand that it is a class and they are there to learn. Classic! My apologies for being so demanding and uncaring!

3. The Chinese are at least as much to blame for their history as outsiders are. It would be nice if the Chinese finally realised that rather than seeking scapegoats.

4. America has helped China a lot in recent years. America could easily have closed her markets to Chinese goods, keeping the Chinese economy in check for decades. You criticise the Americans for "interfering" in Taiwan, yet fail to criticise Chinese "interference" in other countries, including Tibet. Anyway, in this interdependent world, what exactly do you class as "interference"? America opening her markets to China could easily be classed as "interference".

5. The "dancing monkeys" are responsible for much of the good in China. I challenge the notion that China went from near-destitute to rapidly developing in 20 years without white-faced help as complete fiction. At the very, very least, they had plenty of Russian help. You've clearly never heard of the Great Leap Forward [sic] and the Cultural Revolution. Kindly read up on modern Chinese history before lecturing the rest of us about it.

6. I don't believe that the Chinese work harder than Westerners. I believe this is a myth spread by those who would have us Westerners lose confidence in ourselves. The Chinese certainly do not work as efficiently as we do. The great myth that Asians work so much harder (and therefore, by implication, better) than Westerners has been around for half a century now. Boring and unproven!

When I teach, I am told that the students want it "Western style" (communicative/student-centred). As soon as I launch into that, they change their minds and decide that they prefer Chinese style (lecture/teacher-centred), because Western style is too hard. I can do Chinese style teaching. I don't like it, but it's easy to do. Then they decide they want Western style again. Then they want Chinese style again. You get the picture.

Let me say that I truly believe that China should be a world power, simply because it has such a massive population. I have no problem with the average Chinese person having a living standard similar to that of a Westerner.

What I object to is the holier-than-thou attitude held by most Chinese people and the rampant nationalism. As a student of history, I'm well-aware of where that leads. On the educational side, I just wish they'd make up their minds what they actually want and make sure that what they want is realistic. If that makes me a China-basher - fine!

[Nemesis]

[bearcanada]

John, if we want to have a political debate, we will likely have to move to another forum, but since some of your points affect the job of teaching in China, let's address them.

First, since we are strangers in a strange land, yes it is our place to understand our new home and to accommodate ourselves to the local culture and practices. Our students, especially the younger ones, have no obligation to 'understand' us in any sense. That isn't their job. To suggest otherwise is silly and I think you know that. It would be supreme arrogance to go to a (very) foreign country and demand that the entire population attempt to understand YOU. Who are you?

Second, I don't believe that any thinking person would try to make a case proving that "China is as much to blame" for the invasion of the Mongols, the Japanese and the rape of Nanjing or the British and French opium invasions. Your comment that the Chinese "should finally realise that" is simply outrageous. Similarly, China is not in any way responsible for the US interference in Taiwan or the CIAs financing aborted attempts at Tibetan secession.

You claim that the US has helped China a lot "in recent years". What about the years prior to that? In any case, your suggestion that the US opened its markets to China sounds like you did this country a favor out of the goodness of your heart. Do you really believe that, or are you just badly misinformed?

The US opened its markets to China for two reasons. One is that China became a member of the WTO and the US had no choice. You may also be aware that for 20 years the US did everything in its power to prevent China's accession to the WTO. Where was your 'helping hand' then? The second reason is that the US wanted access to China's markets for Citibank, Walmart, et al, and had no choice but to reciprocate. There were no favors done here to China, in any sense, and China's far greater success in penetrating the US markets has led to a host of 'sore-loser' disputes including illegal trade barriers and currency accusations. All of the US actions have been solely in its commercial best interest, and in no way driven by any wish to help China. The whole thing has been a game of 'king of the hill', with the US doing all it could to prevent China's progress.

Third, the situations with Taiwan and Tibet are not problems to be dealt with by the US government and the CIA. That is what we call interference. Taiwan and Tibet have always been part of Greater China, and it isn't our place to tell them differently.

China did indeed make its progress without white help, and the suggestion about Russia is nonsense. Russia didn't know how to do anything properly, which is why they disintegrated. China's leaders have been infinitely smarter and have done most things right. Russia is so bogged down in internal crap they may never recover, and certainly are in no condition to 'help' anyone. They can't even help themselves.

It is no myth that the Chinese work hard. Look at any company in the country and see the hours they keep. Look at the hours the school children put in each week. Hardly 'unproven'.

So you 'have no problem' with the average Chinese having a good living standard? My God, how incredibly generous of you, how magnanimous, and how arrogant. YOU are 'granting' these people the possibility of being rich too? No wonder the sun shines in China.

The only 'holier-than-thou attitude' that I see in China is exhibited by Americans. I have never met a Chinese who claimed they were better than anyone else. They generally admire and respect Westerners; it is you with the attitude, not them.

Your comment about 'rampant nationalism' is actually quite disturbing. Aside from being outrageous and totally false, this is a real case of the pot calling the kettle black. It is the US that exhibits the rampant nationalism, not China. This is the kind of nationalism that is truly dangerous, that leads to wars..... Being such a distinguished 'student of history' you surely are aware that China doesn't start wars. It never has. China is the only major country that has never tried to colonise poorer countries, has never attempted to conquer other nations, has never interfered in the internal affairs of other nations. China has never had imperialistic ambitions, has never wanted to be the 'leader of the world'. Would you like to guess who has done.....?

In any case, we digress. This was a thread about the social and cultural circumstances in China that produce a lack of response in the classroom and an apparent inability to perform as we would wish. We listed and examined some of the causes and should pursue this topic because there is much of value here to be gathered and understood.

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[bearcanada]

Nemesis, I don't understand where you get your conclusions. Nobody said anything about 'saving the poor Chinese' or about the 'rehabilitation of the Chinese people'. All your posts seem to be the same - full of statements with no basis. Read the original posts again; they contain nothing to suggest your conclusions.

From reading some of these posts, I think most of us would conclude that not all the dimwits are seated at desks in the classroom.

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[Nemesis]

[bearcanada]

Oh, my. How can this be happening? Who is this Nemesis person?

The students are in the class to learn ENGLISH, not to be re-programmed into Westerners. We, on the other hand, are in China to live and work. So who needs to adapt to a new culture? Why is this complicated?

Nobody said anything about teaching in a Chinese way or a Western way. But the 'ways' that are being used are meeting a lot of frustration; the teachers are not having great success in many cases and are encountering behavior they don't understand and don't adequately know how to deal with.

It is my contention that our lack of full understanding of the context in which we find ourselves is the root cause of much of the difficulty. Therefore if we make an attempt to understand the context and the causes of the behavior we see, then we can adapt and do better.

For sure, if we don't do that, then we cannot adapt and do better. This cannot be difficult to understand.

My quote that you highlighted is in no way 'talking in circles'. It is precisely the point I've made from the start - we cannot demand that the Chinese understand us; it is our job to understand THEM. Your conclusions seem almost irrational to me. Of course there's a 'Western atmosphere' to our teaching, because we're Westerners. But that has NOTHING to do with the topic of this thread. We're trying to better understand what is behind the behavior that we see in the classroom so that we can lessen our frustration and produce a better educational result.

Please try to stay on the topic.

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[Nemesis]

[johnchina]

BearCanada -

1. It is the job of the student to understand where the teacher is coming from. To be fair, it is the job of the teacher to aid the student in this understanding. Teaching is a partnership between teacher and student. Not only in the case of FTs, but also in the case of Chinese teachers. Your argument that it is not their job carries some weight with young kiddies, IMHO not with high school students and certainly not with uni students and adults.

2. China is as much to blame for invasions. Empress Cici spent the defence budget on frivolities and the 8 Powers had a field day as a result. If the Communists and the Nationalists had fought side-by-side, they would have been more effective against the Japanese. One reason the Mongols were able to dominate China was that they could take the Chinese on one group at a time, since they weren't united. The opium sold to the Chinese by the British was often done through Chinese middlemen and was consumed by the Chinese.

3. The US provided much-needed military advice to the Chinese during WW2. Kindly remember that Chiang Kai Shek was Chinese too! I doubt they did it solely from the goodness of their hearts, but kindly show me a country that ever has, does or ever will? The point is that the US could easily have prevented China's growth since 1990, yet they didn't. Oh, and the US opened its markets (at least partially) to China before China joined the WTO. It would be nice if China lived up to its obligations under the WTO, but hey, with people like you slamming the States at every opportunity, the Chinese probably figure they can drag their feet.

4. Why shouldn't the Americans be involved in Taiwan and Tibet? Neither has "always" been part of Greater China, as anyone who can do a bit of research online should know. Oh, yeah, the Chinese government has blocked all those sites, hasn't it?!

5. Russia was highly successful at making nuclear weapons. They made excellent tanks. The Chinese are buying their fighters like crazy. They bought an aircraft carrier off them. The Russians don't know how to do anything properly? Rubbish! Vodka? Caviar? Railways?

6. Yes, the Chinese work long hours - well, they stay in the workplace for long hours. My point is that there is so little to show for it. What about efficiency?

7. You've never met a Chinese person who thought they were better than everyone else? Wow!

8. So, you would prefer to see all Chinese people poor? That's very kind of you! I'd prefer to see them as rich as Western countries are.

9. I agree that many Americans do have a holier-than-thou attitude. But just because the Americans have that attitude, doesn't automatically mean the Chinese have to.

10. Rampant nationalism exists in China. Simple. I've seen it and it's ugly.

11. Vietnam? China attacked them. How about Tibet? Oh, I forgot - that's ALWAYS been part of China, right? The indigenous people of Tibet and Xinjiang would also claim that they are being colonised. Some might say that the Chinese diaspora is colonisation on the sly. The US is already concerned about Chinese migration to Guam Saipan - key US military outposts. It'd be nice (and wonderfully convenient for the CCP) if the 'citizens' there decided to unite with China, wouldn't it?!

[chia48]

Different interpretations of history, differing points of view .....

BUT, to be pragmatic, as language teachers won't we do a better job
( it does seem true that emotional engagement is required for this type
of learning) - if we can establish rapport with our students?

How can we establish rapport without some interest, curiosity, sympathy maybe,
about who they are, their lives, their experiences, their parents .......... to put it simply, a positive attitude?

[kev7161]

Why is it that so many schools, summer camps, etc. ask their foreign teachers to bring magazines, books, CDs, pictures, maps and so on from their country to share with the students. Why do so many schools ask the foreign teachers to arrange and/or participate in parties celebrating western holidays such as Halloween and Christmas? Why do so many English ESL books refer to cities, places, clothing, cultures, foods . . . from foreign countries?

Of course schools want us to influence the kids. It is the students' responsibility to try and understand the different cultures they are presented. The students and their parents and the school staff and administrators must understand where their FTs are coming from and must adapt, othewise why have FTs presenting their different cultural idiosyncracies in the first place? Any Chinese teacher can teach the basics of English but only a true native speaker can teach the nuances and subtleties of the language (not to say that any native speaker can actually teach!). Yes, of course we FTs should try to adapt based on the classroom situation we're in, but I think the OP is apologizing too much for China's education system and for the lazy students it produces.

PS: If we're being too hard on these poor, pitiful students due to their education circumstance, how does one explain the many students that do come out on the other end with good to almost excellent English as well as being seemingly enlightened by the "western way"?

[bearcanada]

Kevin, I agree with your points, but I am not apologising for the 'poor Chinese' or for their educational system. I am simply saying that if we don't understand the system here, the conditions and circumstances under which these people grew up, we will never understand their present behavior in the classroom. We won't know why they seem uninterested or apathetic or whatever, and we won't be able to adapt our teaching methods accordingly. That's all.

On the other hand, we seem to have comments here about China adapting to the foreign teachers and, if I understand these comments correctly, they seem crazy to me. If someone from India or Saudi Arabia goes to the US to teach Hindi or Arabic, are these posters telling us that it is the job of the Americans to adapt to the Indian or Arabic culture? How can that make sense? If one of these foreigners moves to the US to live, it's his place to fit in - to learn the culture and habits and to follow them. That was my point for we foreigners in China.

And of course the students are interested in our culture, in many forms, but let's see that for what it is. I study biology because I want to UNDERSTAND frogs, not because I want to BECOME a frog. Why is that difference too small to distinguish when we speak of a Chinese classroom? These people do want to learn and understand, but they are not looking to be reprogrammed - certainly not by us.

I don't believe we are being too hard on them, and I do think there are many good Western teachers here who make a significant contribution to the lives of many of these young people. We will never know the effect we have on them, on their attitudes, on their views of the world, but many of those effects may change lives.

Again, yes the students want to learn and understand us and our thinking and ways of life, but my point is that we must also try to learn and understand them instead of railing and whining about things we don't like. We are strangers in a strange land and things are much different here. We cannot teach Chinese students with assumptions based on experiences from another place and time. Our natural inclinations and teaching methods might serve us well in our home countries, but these people have a very different background with many attitudes that are foreign to us. We need to understand what those are, and gear our methods accordingly.

As a small example, if these young people have grown up in a 'lecture, memorise, don't question' atomosphere, what will happen when we waltz in with our Western attitude of 'do it yourself, question, debate' approach? We'll be faced with a wall of silence, won't we? Isn't it better to understand what it is like for the students and tap into that to create change, instead of just condemning them for being lazy?

I would have no more patience than you, for students who sleep in class or play video games on their mobile phones, or who don't study because their parents' money will guarantee a pass. But I've never had those experiences. My students don't do that.

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