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Moon Over Parma
Joined: 20 May 2007
Posts: 819
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 Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:57 am Post subject: |
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| Sonnibarger wrote: |
| jammish wrote: |
| hinese clubs, I would give that question a resounding YES! |
i love the "djs" who pretend to beat match even tho they are using cd's to play music. never seen a turn table in the life but dam do they look cool |
http://www.cdscratch.com/
Perhaps they're not "pretending," as you say. As that link proves: there's technology to make the pre-turntable kids into a virtual Grandmaster Flash. |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 3:26 am Post subject: Re: I've opened a hornet's nest haven't I? |
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| I agree with the general consensus that job hopping is going to get much more difficult from now on. But I also think a lot of schools are going to find recruiting qualified, experienced, motivated professionals far more difficult as well. In some cities it may be possible to replace us with Filipino or Chinese teachers but I don't think that would work in Nanning. Parents here are getting harder to fool and the students where I work are demanding all foreign teachers for Maths, Science and IT as well as English. |
Schools/centers'd had difficult time recruiting those kinds of teachers before the recent new rules came in. The cream of the crop often heads elsewhere than China.
From what you're saying up there it does feel like our jobs kind of depend on those lovely parents that know what their kids need.
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| I have warned my outfit that very few experienced foreigners in Nanning have not had a run in with one of the many scam schools in this city. The intention was to give them a coded message not to try and enforce the rules too strictly or else it might rebound on them. I got no response. |
With regards to the new rules, in Nanning or anywhere in China where the new rules have been introduced, I don't think that employers will let new foreign teachers know about it. They'll just let them sign their lovely Chinese-English Contracts with a smile on the face.
Now, those "scam schools" that you're refering to are everywhere in China and sadly enough there's little we can do about it. One can get a legal work permit, and still work for an establishment with no license. Or, one can get a work permit, and work for an establishment with an employer that knows little about the biz and has hired SOME LOCALS TO MANAGE QUALIFIED, AND EXPERIENCED FOREIGN EXPERTS.
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| Here is one other interesting bit of information from the administrator who sent me the original e mail that sparked all this off. She told me that the FAOs of all the licensed schools in Nanning were summoned to a meeting with the PSB, and other unspecified departments of government, where the new rules were spelled out fairly forcefully. This happened about 3 weeks ago and lasted half a day. So there does seem to be some element of co-ordination involved and at least some attempt at enforcement. However I have not heard of any action being taken yet against the many unlicensed schools. That will be the acid test. |
As the acid rain is ignored in China, so will this acid test. 
No disrespect meant, but that meeting could've happened at a dinner table full of beer. And, those school licenses weren't needed to attend.
The "forceful" message from your office bird is to scare, in my opinion.
All FTs should know that there are new rules and they need to behave in a way to "satisfy" their employers and that in order to get their RECOMMANDATION LETTERS on the end of their lovely contracts.
A few days ago, my wife told me that I should behave better. If I divorced her now, she would not give me a "Recommandation Letter" and so I could not get married in China again. 
Cheers and beers to Chinese biz dinner meetings as well as our lovely wives that speak Chinese |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 3:40 am Post subject: |
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ok, this need for "recommandation letters" on the end of foreign teachers (experts) contracts should be presented to the teachers when they are being hired, although they are/will not be told... watch out 
cheers and beers |
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Lorean
Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 476
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 3:49 am Post subject: |
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This strikes me as nonsense.
First, the way it's worded seems to me that the recommendation letter only applies if you are switching jobs without having completed the previous contract.
Secondly, schools already do a lot of illegal hiring on F visas. Even if such a recommendation letter were required, it's unlikely the schools will even pay attention to it. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:07 am Post subject: |
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| Lorean wrote: |
| First, the way it's worded seems to me that the recommendation letter only applies if you are switching jobs without having completed the previous contract. |
I think that this is exactly what it is for. I don't think that it comes into play if you complete your contract and then head off and find yourself another school.
| Lorean wrote: |
| Secondly, schools already do a lot of illegal hiring on F visas. Even if such a recommendation letter were required, it's unlikely the schools will even pay attention to it. |
The letter is not for the new school it enables the new school to get you a work permit to work at that new school. So yes you are right that schools who employ illegally will not be affected by any of this, but teachers who work illegally will remain vulnerable to problems there.
As with many such systems in China the proposed system is doomed for failure due to non-compliance and inconsistency.
I agree that a system should be instituted that has repercussions for teachers who do runners, but it should be up to an impartial third party to be in control here not the previous employer. It leaves things too open to abuse. |
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danielb
Joined: 08 Aug 2003
Posts: 490
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:12 am Post subject: |
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| The new procedures are not just for foreign teachers. If you have been previously employed in China (legally) then you are required to present a letter to your new legal employer so that they may obtain a work permit for you. This is irregardless of whether or not you have completed your contract. |
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menso35
Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:05 am Post subject: |
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This whole thing about a release letter (the term used in Korea) is nothing more than an attempt at controlling us.
The sad thing is that it will have the effect of driving good, serious teachers to other places. Take Korea for example. Have you looked at the jobs wanted section there? I heard that at any given time they have 10,000 jobs that they cannot fill. Their visa laws are such that basically the hagwon owners owns you and can abuse, fire, screw over, or have you deported for any reason. If that starts happening in China I would imagine it would only add to the shortage of English teachers here.
I really don't get the logic here. Most of us come from first world, probably middle class backgrounds and are used to a certain standard of living, access to amenities, etc. My reason for coming to China has zero to due with money or economic necessity. We are giving up a lot to be here but of course we are getting a lot in return. However, what these government officials/school owners fail to realize is that we are only a plane ticket away from saying, "You know what, screw this, it's just not worth it, I am outta here".
This b.s. is why I left Korea. The only people that get hurt from this are the students. I really miss my Korean students. Don't quote me on this, but I would totally do this job for free if I could. I take ownership in the student's success and would bend over backwards for any of them, and regularly go above and beyond, just like I do with my clients back home. Not to blow my own horn, but I am the type of person that that if someone stops me on the subway and asks for help with English I gladly help them. Are they using me? I don't know and I don't care. I enjoy teaching and helping people, and that is what motivates me. What really gets me is how the English language industry in Asia has been totally bastardized. In Korea, if there is to be any purveyance of the English langauge the greedy school owners want their cut.
I am here because I love teaching. Again, not to sound like I am bragging, but I can totally travel on my own without having to teach. Travel is not my motivation. Unreasonable laws severly tilted in favor of the employer, cheating, contract violations, etc will only drive out good, conscientious employees. One thing I cannot stand are scummy backpacker teachers who couldn't care less about teaching and are only doing this "for a year, until I go back to the real world".
Sorry for the rant. No comments from the peanut gallery, unless they are positive. I have been in a foul mood lately and am extra sensitive:) |
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johnchina
Joined: 24 Apr 2006
Posts: 816
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:21 am Post subject: none |
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Nice post, menso.
I agree that the main idea seems to be 'control'. You raise the point about it driving the better teachers away. I really wonder whether this is an effect of the policy or a reason for introducing it. |
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menso35
Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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One more thing.
I worked in sales for many years and sold cars, insurance, financial services, funerals and cemetery plots, electronics, lab equipment, and was a sales rep in manufacturing. I have also worked in corporate environments, been a cubicle dweller, customer service rep, auditor, and sales manager. That being said, I have never, ever seen the level of unprofessionalism, lying, cheating, and overall bull crap as I have seen in the EFL business, and I have come across some pretty slimy characters in my day. This includes some teachers too, not just the schools.
If there is going to be a crackdown on foreign workers, especially teachers, there should an equally broad crackdown on schools and their flagrant screwing over of their staff, not only foreign but Chinese nationals as well. I used to say that the only people Koreans treated worse than foreigners was each other.
Do I have a chip on my shoulder? You bet I do! I have been screwed twice in the past year and am at a point where I am pretty much on my way out this business, unless I find a really great and ethical organization. Any suggestions in the Shenzhen/Guandong area?
I wonder if it's possible to meet with the people who make these decisions? It is really sad because with their greed, power trips, and saving face, they are ruining what could be a great bridge building opportunity between east and west. Greed is what killed/is killing the United States, and has also pretty much ruined the EFL business. Sad indeed.
Sorry guys, just some stuff I had to get off my chest that had been festering a while. |
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malu
Joined: 22 Apr 2007
Posts: 1344
Location: Sunny Java
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:25 am Post subject: |
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It strikes me that this recommendation letter requirement would be very easy to sidestep. If an employer has sufficient guanxi with the local Party that he can get L visas magically transformed into residence permits then the mere lack of a letter shouldn't present much of an issue.
Similarly, even the nastiest FT that ever walked the earth just has to leave China for long enough to get a new passport. |
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PattyFlipper
Joined: 14 Nov 2007
Posts: 572
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:30 am Post subject: Re: none |
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| johnchina wrote: |
Good points, SnoopBot and therock.
Re the (proposed) teacher training in Thailand. At least they'll be teaching Western or Western-ish methodology. Can you imagine what it'd be like here in China?
Methodology - Lecure, lecture, lecture. Teach them how to plagiarise. For exam results, just give a number between 80 and 100 out of 100, based on how much you like the student and how much they bribe you. What a mess!
To be honest, if the Thai system allows teachers to work part-time whilst training, I think at lot of people would go for it - enough to keep enough |
Obviously, you have never worked in Thailand. Thai employers are just as devious and venal, and often even more exploitative than those in China. Salary levels are about the same, absent the other benefits like free accommodation, utilities, and airfare available in China. The Land of Smiles hype, primarily intended to part the tourists from their dollars and euros, quickly evaporates when confronted with the grim realities of trying to scratch a living within the atrocious education system. Visit the discussion boards for expat teachers in Thailand, and you will quickly realize that most of the complaints which are leveled against the Chinese, apply equally in Thailand, and also include a few which are uniquely Thai in concept.
As to the Thais using "Western-style methodology" on these micky mouse courses they have devised in order to extort money from farang who seek to work there, I almost fell out of my chair laughing at that one. Thailand has just about the worst education (at all levels) in the whole region. I have yet to meet a Thai who could teach his or her way out of a paper bag. Thai students perform dismally in international examinations (those where the Thai teachers and administrators are unable to manipulate the results). In Asia, only the Khmers and Burmese do worse - and the Khmers are rapidly catching up. If you check the lists of the best universities in the world (and yes, I know that there are various lists compiled using different criteria), or even for the Asian region, you will find few if any Thai universities appearing there. On this one http://www.arwu.org/rank/2005/ARWU2005_Top100.htm, for example, Thai universities are conspicuous by their total absence.
Rather than attracting people to teach in Thailand, the new regulations, which simply add further layers of Byzantine red-tape to what was already a ludicrously convoluted system, the opposite is true. Westerners have been leaving in droves, including appropriately qualified teachers who cannot be bothered to jump through all the fiery hoops in return for the derisory benefits on offer. As a result, as snoopbot has pointed out, the Thais are now recruiting Filipinos who can be paid less and will not, often out of dire necessity, complain so much about the dreadful working conditions. |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:21 am Post subject: |
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patty, since you've got that "thailand experience", do the thai people get such an easy ride in the business license application process?
chinese business people get their licenses according to their conncetions, bribes, dinner encounters etc and often have little need to produce qualifications or experiences in the field...schools or language centers have a share of such lovely owners
coming back to the isse of the RECOMMANDATION LETTER, the main point here is that those kinds of people will have their right to judge our work and they'll most likely involve their chinese staff members (administrators, teachers, cleaners etc) in the process of "gathering evidence' on how good/bad we have been through out the year...further more, the point here is that many will probably be subject to harrassement or expoitation of their employers towards the end of their contracts since this letter is to be provided in the case of FTs intentions of stayin' in the area or provinces where the rule's come in effect
i am reconsidering my own intentions of working in this country now...and if others follow we might as well make our point better than keep on breaking those shite contracts that we have put ourselves into...i mean how many of us have signed reasonably clear and professional contracts 
| Quote: |
| It strikes me that this recommendation letter requirement would be very easy to sidestep. |
would you ask your employer to provide you with the letter on the first day of your contract
| Quote: |
| If there is going to be a crackdown on foreign workers, especially teachers, there should an equally broad crackdown on schools and their flagrant screwing over of their staff, not only foreign but Chinese nationals as well. I used to say that the only people Koreans treated worse than foreigners was each other. |
i don't think there's an FT "crackdown" on a way...the RECOMMANDATION LETTER is to adjust foreign experts attitudes and provide their employers with rather unlimited powers in a sense of the foreign employee's faith in a location of the country
| Quote: |
| I wonder if it's possible to meet with the people who make these decisions? It is really sad because with their greed, power trips, and saving face, they are ruining what could be a great bridge building opportunity between east and west. Greed is what killed/is killing the United States, and has also pretty much ruined the EFL business. Sad indeed. |
sad, isn't it
now, to meet these people who make such decisions in this lovely country you'd have to come the party meetings...that's also where some chinese business people make connection too....they call themselves "brothers"
peace to all the party meetings the few members in china that make their desicions
and
cheers and beers to the ones that cannot get in those meetings or make a difference in the decisions that effect so many |
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PattyFlipper
Joined: 14 Nov 2007
Posts: 572
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| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| englishgibson wrote: |
patty, since you've got that "thailand experience", do the thai people get such an easy ride in the business license application process?
chinese business people get their licenses according to their conncetions, bribes, dinner encounters etc and often have little need to produce qualifications or experiences in the field...schools or language centers have a share of such lovely owners
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First, let me state that I am no longer in Thailand, from whence I fled in disgust several years ago. This was actually one of my reasons for going to China. I accepted a contract for one semester and ended up spending four years at the same university.
To answer your question, to open a language school in Thailand, the school is technically required to have a principal, who has to be a qualified educator within the definition laid down by the Ministry of Education (this also applies to the chains and franchises). The catch is that he or she MUST be a Thai national, and the words educator and Thai when used together are an oxymoron in my view. In addition, the position of "principal" is totally divorced from the actual ownership and/or day to day management of the "school" (i.e. business). There is no requirement for him or her to ever actually set foot on the premises. I know a couple of Thai school owners who simply paid one of their old high school teachers a retainer, in order to use their name on the licence application form.
Rest assured that your comments regarding Chinese school owners, guanxi and corruption in government departments, are equally applicable in Thailand. Language schools the world over (not that I have worked for one for the last 20 years) seem to be run by sharks and used-car salesmen, and are often ghastly places to work. In Thailand, the same applies to the universities, as evidenced by their constant advertisements for foreign teachers. |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 2:57 am Post subject: |
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well, looks like thailand isn't much different from china with respect to business licenses
coming back to the requirement of THE RECOMMANDATION LETTERS to foreign experts that wish to stay in china, the above mentioned kinds of "expert" business people will have more power over our faith in the country/city where we might've settled in by now...the ones with their chinese girlfriends or the married ones in china will probably either have to compromise more often or give up on this lovely country ... although it is still possible to move to another city in china, where the RECOMMANDATION LETTER rule has not been in effect yet
again, as one has well mentioned before on this thread
| Quote: |
| they are ruining what could be a great bridge building opportunity between east and west. |
yes, ruining it is...however, both sides are guilty..just don't know which one more ... many of us've burst into this country with virtually nothing and've behaved as badly as those shite ch-employers
cheers and beers to all foreign experts in china that've worked on that "great bridge building opportunity between east and west" |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:13 am Post subject: |
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| Recommendation letters. Just reading this again after a glance weeks ago. Recommendation/ release letters have been "officially needed for a slong as I remember, though I was only asked once to get it. That was a FAO new at the jov who was trying to follow the rules. In past years you would never need it when teaching in a new province, just when switching within the province. I do know the SAFEA makes periodic attempts to be more efficient |
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