Job Discussion Forums

[Quibby84]

I feel for the kids to, but if you think about it all of the adults were once kids as well. I have talked to SO many Japanese people about this and almost all of them feel like they are stuck in this "cultural work till you die" thing and that they cant get out. I had one lady last week tell me that she has made successful English school that does lots of good things for the community but her kids had to suffer. She was/is never home and they had to survive alone. This lady is very successsful but there are others who work work work and leave their kids at home that have nothing to show for it.
When I tell many Japanese people how in America we mostly work from 8 to 5 and if we work more than that then we get paid extra money. Most companies are not that excited about paying extra so they want you to leave on time. Work in America is not your whole life, it is just something that helps you to survive. I think that in Japan it is something that helps you survive but it is your life to....it has to be your life, you spend 15ish hours a day doing it. The Japanese people I talk to wish that they could live like that but they dont know how they could do it without completely losing face and having everyone talk badly about them behind their back..etc.
It is very sad...so yes, I do pity them...they didnt ask to be like this, they were born into it, so as kids they suffer and then as adults they suffer....tis sad sad sad

[G Cthulhu]

[RingofFire]

[Quibby84]

On the average, (at least in my city) people who have a college degree can work 8 to 5. Now some may choose to work overseas or in a factory, but 8 to 5 is pretty common in my opinion.
That is not counting people without a college degree and who might work at retail stores or resturants....

[crankyjiji]

[TK4Lakers]

[wabisabi365]

And isn't it often the case that if you say "such and such is like this in my country" it's in the Japanese nature to agree that your way sounds the best? It's positive stroking and creates a nice atmosphere. How often have you heard the phrase; "I envy you!" It's just nice.

It seems a tad pompous to say "I pity the Japanese their way of going about their work." Really, who are you to say that your way is better, particularly if you've only been, at best, a superficial part of the Japanese work-a-day world? The ranks of people who criticize it are very often those who can't partake fully because of linguistic barriers. You are given what your Japanese co-workers choose to give you, and if agreeing that "Yes, the American system is better" creates a harmonious environment, you can be damned sure that's what your co-worker is going to say to you.

ws365

[gaijinalways]

But I have to think dying from karoshi is not the choice most of them would make if they thought about it ! Some people do move outside their cultural bounds, but it does require some effort .

[Mothy]

Although working "8 to 5" might be more the stereotype than the reality in America, it certainly is the case that if you work more than a 40 hour week you are paid overtime. I don't know whether Japan has these overtime rules too but if they do they don't enforce them. In America it is strictly enforced. Maybe because the US is more litigious (spelling?) and the company will quickly find itself in court if it tries to not pay out. I'm not saying this is necessarily a better way than in Japan. In America this causes it's own problem. I've been yelled at by my boss in America for clocking out 5 minutes late because the company didn't want to pay even 5 minutes of overtime. This means sometimes I need to squeeze 12 hours of work into 8 hours. Not much fun, and bad in its own way.
But I would argue, to those who say don't be critical of the Japanese working style because it's their culture, that it has enough to do with me that I can be critical of it. My wife is Japanese so it's not like I'm here because I'm just fooling around until I move on to some other country. That she is expected to live this lifestyle does affect me. So I can be as critical of it as I like to... And she is very critical of it also. Even more than me. Also, this is having a bad effect on society as a whole, leading to the weakening of Japanese family bonds. I read in the newspaper today (Daily Yomiuri I think) that a recent survey found that over 40% of Japanese spouses speak to their spouse less than 30 minutes a day. I don't want that future for my family. When we have kids I want both my wife and I to be able to spend time with them.
My last point. This putting of the company first might be the way of a certain generation of Japanese, but it hasn't always been that way. There was a time when the Japanese were more admired for the closeness of their family bonds than their work ethic. I'm glad that so many younger Japanese are rejecting this thought. As an outsider I can't really do anything to change it, but I can certainly be as critical of it as I like

[gaijin4life]

I agree in part w TK4Lakers and Mothy in that many people who live here for a very short period of time, - ( with a return ticket and often no intention of ever living here for any real period of time ) dont really get full picture of what the reality is for many workers at companies here in Japan. - I certainly didnt until I had been here for over a year and started to work for a Japanese company.

I see people who work very hard (often) - in circumstances that would not be tolerated in other (predominantly Western perhaps) countries, ie. those 'with' labor laws that were enforced.

What I ve also seen are many positive things such as collegiality, a selflessness and a real sense of team-work. People work hard but they often enjoy doing it ... As my situation is a little different to the average Japanese employee I dont feel I am really in a position to judge, although I know that its difficult to judge the situation without actually experiencing it.

Ofcourse things over here are different to what 'we' in our own 'home' countries may have experienced.. that's the way it is. Different countries; different norms. Walk the mile in the other persons' shoes before you can really judge .. my 2 cents worth anyway ..

[RingofFire]

[wabisabi365]

[Vince]

During my first year in Japan, I started these kinds of discussions with my students and Japanese associates. Although naive, it was out of my West-centric concern for their well being. Looking back, I probably created a few xenophobes in the process. I eventually realized that we aren't doing anybody any favors when we try to influence them to rebel against such a "row or be thrown overboard" system. We might not be comfortable with the way things work, but we need to give the Japanese credit for knowing what it takes to survive in their society. They can decide for themselves when it's time to lay it all on the line.

I think the Japanese bring this on themselves to some extent. When you first arrive in Japan and don't yet know the people, it can be easy for people of the Western mentality to assume the role of shepherd when confronted with what we see as their sheepish demeanor.

[southofreality]

[wabisabi365]