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gdfroberts
Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Posts: 6
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 Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 3:11 pm Post subject: z visa entry |
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[quote="arioch36"]Roberts? You still haven't told us what kind of visa you entered on. Hard to believe it was a z-visa[/quote]
Yes, I did enter on a z-visa. That was september of last year. I worked for another school, York for a year and they changed it to a residents permit and got me an FEC. They were very good. The problem happened when I left York and took up a job with another school (WEBi). They were supposed to renew everything for me and change it to their school. Well, they renewed my residents permit, and told me that the Alien Work Permit was the new version of the FEC, which having heard that the system had been changed I foolishly believed. |
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IanMWashburn
Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 61
Location: As of February 2009 - Santa Cruz, CA, USA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 3:39 pm Post subject: Do you mean "Alien EMPLOYMENT Permit"???" |
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Do you mean "Alien EMPLOYMENT Permit"???"
Seems like a minor detail...but it helps to be EXACT about what we're talking about here...or else some of us, like me, might get another headache.
Because the "Alien WORK Permit" only applies to extraterrestrials.
Read the cover.
What do it say? |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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The embassy web site says Work Permit for Aliens ie, the Invitation letter to get your z-visa. The invitation letters I have do not call the initation letter anything, just say take this certifcate to the nearest embassy or consulate. The only booklet you recieve after arriving in country is the red Foreign Experts Certificate (FEC)
GDF
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| Well, they renewed my residents permit, and told me that the Alien Work Permit was the new version of the FEC, which having heard that the system had been changed I foolishly believed. |
TOTAL LIE
Roberts, you have my sympathy. THE EXACT SAME THING happend to me. The first, I was surprised I liked teaching here. Took my airplane money, and bummed around China for the summer. I came in on a z-visa nice and legal. Signed with a different school. The FAO was professional, had good english, was a good teacher and administrator... besides on minor flaw... lying through her teeth. Two laowai were working there, neither clued me in, they were content working on L visas.
I told the school ... my resident permit is expiring soon several times. They gave me a fake resident permit. This was the fall. I asked them why this residence permit was diffeent (back then you got a separate residence permit booklet)
Had no idea where the PSB was, or what the SAFEA or foreign experts bureau was. I obeyed the laws. Now if the had just converted my z-visa to an L-visa before the RP expired, no big problem. But they couldn't be bothered understanding these details
Finally got to the Foreign expert Bureau the next semester. After talks with them, and my new school nice things about me, they manafged to write me some B.S. letter that barely was accepted by the PSB at the SHanghai airport ... as I was leaving the country to visit my mother who had almost died in the hospital
So that's why I recommend going to the Foreign experts Bureau, and see what they are willing to try to do |
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InTime
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Posts: 1676
Location: CHINA-at-large
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| Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 7:57 am Post subject: |
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| they none the less decided that I had to leave the country within 10 days as I had been working illegally. |
Did they PRINT the "10-day" exit on your Passport?
If so, consider "losing" your passport. That "10-day" phrase is a Black Mark, visible to PSB officials as long as you have that passport.
I got one "10-days to leave"...and went to HK...and they didn't even want to give me an Entry Visa to China. |
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Teatime of Soul
Joined: 12 Apr 2007
Posts: 905
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| Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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If somebody wants to open a foreign language school and hire FTs, they cannot legally hire them, (under their own SAFEA license) until they have been licensed by SAFEA.
A school cannot even apply for a SAFEA license until they have been operating for one year. After they apply, it could take anywhere from several months, to several years, before they complete the inspections and are granted a SAFEA license to hire foreigners.
During the interim, they will be advised by the PSB to affiliate with a governmental agency or school and use their license to hire FTs.
For example, a school may affiliate with the Labor Bureau, or the Womens and Childrens Ministry, or a local college or public school that is SAFEA licensed.
So it is not only legal, but encouraged by the PSB as the necessary and appropriate means to hire FTs until a school has it's own SAFEA license.
The obvious rationale is not to waste inspection and licensing resources on new schools that have a 90+% rate of failure. By requiring the affiliation to be with a "public" entity, it provides a measure of accountability. It also provides a legal means for schools to hire FTs until they are licensed.
Now, you have an FT working at his school that is using the license of another entity; no problem.
When that FT is sent to yet another school to work, there may be a problem. Not every school may employ the services of an FT. This does not mean hire an FT, it means have an FT on premises teaching, at all.
Technically, a school is supposed to be "licensed" to allow FTs to even teach on premises. This is entirely apart from providing pay and visa services which is the SAFEA licese issue.
It is the local PSB that usually monitors what is happening in the local school's classrooms. The PSB generally has a (surprisingly) good idea of who is doing what and where.
So a teacher that is hauled in for "illegally" teaching may in fact have no visa issues, but rather a "jurisdiction" issue well beyond his scope of influence. Its a school/PSB issue.
All the legal nicities don't mean too much. The ultimate yardstick of how "legal" something is will always be measured by the relationship the school has with the PSB.
As always, your milage may differ, colors may fade, and no express or implied warrranty of usability is provided with this opinion. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Teatime of Soul wrote: |
During the interim, they will be advised by the PSB to affiliate with a governmental agency or school and use their license to hire FTs.
For example, a school may affiliate with the Labor Bureau, or the Womens and Childrens Ministry, or a local college or public school that is SAFEA licensed.
So it is not only legal, but encouraged by the PSB as the necessary and appropriate means to hire FTs until a school has it's own SAFEA license. |
A therein lies the conundrum that is China.
The legislation is pretty clear that is illegal to work for employers outside of the employer that you are legally entitled to work for, but it is ambiguous as to whether a seperate work location constitutes a seperate employer.
Those who are charged with enforcing the legislation may interpret it differently in different areas, and at the end of most days that is what really matters to individual teachers.
Although the above needs to be acknowledged, the fact remains that illegal is illegal, and it is the foreign teachers who often wear the brunt of working or acting illegally. That very same PSB officer that approved of your conditions last week could be encouraged by his boss to interpret things differently the next week.
So the only way for foreign teachers to protect themselves is to stay out of these grey areas as best as possible.
I don't doubt what Teatime writes above and it is a good reason in of itself to avoid working for new schools. Stick with established schools, with established reputations, and double check everything you are told as best as you can. Most Chinese are not out there to get us but their 'mei guanxi' attitudes can result in poor decision making as it comes to foreigners. |
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lostinasia
Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 466
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| Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't believe there is any conundrum. I have an adult student who works with SAFEA in Jinan and the discussion once came up and she told me that the law states that you are only allowed to work at the location that is the address posted on the contract. That's not to say all contracts will probably have the mailing/building address, but that's what I was told the law states. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:57 am Post subject: |
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| lostinasia wrote: |
| I have an adult student who works with SAFEA in Jinan and the discussion once came up and she told me that the law states that you are only allowed to work at the location that is the address posted on the contract. |
If it that turns out to be accurate then it would certainly make things a lot simpler. One address, one contract = easy to know if you are legal or not.
Perhaps this is another of those things that is enforced differently in different provinces.
Lostinasia would you mind clarifying some things with that student you mention.
1. If the address stated on the contract is the same as where the teacher actually works but the school at that address is different than the actual school that SAFEA recognizes as being the legal employer is that is that still legal? Basically, can schools have their foreign teachers work at a different location provided that the location is the one stated in the contract?
2. Assuming that it is true, then how far does that extend? City wide. Province wide. Country wide?
3. What is the distinction that SAFEA recognizes as being employed by which entity? What I mean here is, if the teacher is legally employed by Company A, but works at and is paid by Company B (which has no legal right to employ foreign teachers) is that still legal provided that the address on the contract is as per the work location?
4. One of the requirements of SAFEA is that they do annual checks of the schools that they recognize. If teachers are working at locations outside of the recognized school but under the name of that recognized school then does SAFEA also check those locations?
5. I have posted a portion of legislation which shows clearly that licences cannot be shared among employers, so at what point does SAFEA consider it to be a case of 'sharing'?
6. How does a foreign teacher who is employed by Company A legally, ensure that he or she is working legally at Company B where he/she was posted by Company A?
It would be good to get some more detailed information about this as it is a situation that I think is somewhat ambiguous. |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 9:07 am Post subject: |
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Lost
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| have an adult student who works with SAFEA in Jinan and the discussion once came up and she told me that the law states that you are only allowed to work at the location that is the address posted on the contract. |
Well, if that were to be true, then 50% of teachers teaching at legal, well established unis would be doing so illegally. Most unis have more then one campus, far enough away that a bus takes the Chinese teachers and laoewai teachers there. SO all of us teaching at the new campus, or those teaching at the old campus would be working illegally? My school has thre campuses. One school has at least 6. Many language mills have branches at many locations |
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lostinasia
Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 466
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| Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 9:22 am Post subject: |
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Ironically you once again show your lack of knowledge or ability to comprehend what is written. You make a poor assumption. It never occurred to you that a contract could have more than one address? or could state clearly the working location?
Not only that but as I stated, this was information via Jinan - SHANDONG. I never implied what another province might require.
It would be better to stop following me around just to post how you disagree with my writings.
| arioch36 wrote: |
| Well, if that were to be true, then 50% of teachers teaching at legal, well established unis would be doing so illegally. |
Since you seem to be so fact centered - please back-up this statistic as you asked me to do with other information. |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:10 am Post subject: |
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Sure lost,
No hopefully you understand the idea that 50% is a WAG, I'll go with 20% to 70%, a huge number either way/
At my school the administration office is at one campus. Of the 20 FT's here, very few work at this "main campus" As I said, if you read, most schools now have multiple campuses. So by your claim all of those not teaching at the campus with the address given the SAFEA would be illegal.
Which makes no sense. And as most FT's will tell you, in case you actually don't work here, you just come here because of a need to flame everyone who asks a question, the situation is the same in most cities now.
Language mills have always been like this, with many branches. Often the main office of larger language mills might not even have any teaching going on at the actual main office location
Lost
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| Ironically you once again show your lack of knowledge or ability to comprehend what is written |
okay, lets see
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| It never occurred to you that a contract could have more than one address |
according to your own words
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| I have an adult student who works with SAFEA in Jinan and the discussion once came up and she told me that the law states that you are only allowed to work at the location that is the address posted on the contract. |
Well, lost, my understanding of english is that the repeated use of the word "the" means one location one contract.
No since you think this interpretation is faulty, lets look at some common sense. A language mill with many branches is going to put down the branch name of every school that you might possibly work at? What a bright idea.
Not having such bright ideas, I am willing to guess that a Ft is employed by a school, that uses as a contract address (oops, my contract has no school address)... okay, they have an address they use that the SAFEA and PSB and other bureaus know. LIKE THE ADDRESS WRITTEN IN MY FEC 
And guess waht, yep, all of these schools use just one address, the same address, regardless of how many campuses or branches they have.
SO I feel pretty safe teaching at any of the campuses run by my school
Truly idiotic
Since we have not your capacity for logic, and you claim to have a student who knows
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| but that's what I was told the law states. |
how about taking the small step for us unenlightened, and quote the law |
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lostinasia
Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 466
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| Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:16 am Post subject: |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:23 am Post subject: |
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Lost,
Thanx for showing your real self, though most of us know already
Still waiting to hear of this law of yours... but with your type, I am sure I will be waiting for a long time.
But I agree, discussing thing with you is a waste, becaue you really don't care if what you say is right or not, as long as you can fulfill your need to flame people |
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lostinasia
Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 466
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| Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:32 am Post subject: |
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| You are quite welcome. |
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gdfroberts
Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:57 pm Post subject: Re: Do you mean "Alien EMPLOYMENT Permit"???" |
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[quote="IanMWashburn"]Do you mean "Alien EMPLOYMENT Permit"???"
Seems like a minor detail...but it helps to be EXACT about what we're talking about here...or else some of us, like me, might get another headache.
quote]
OK. It was an Alien Employment Permit. Sorry for any confussion. I've been moving about quite a lot and have only just managed to find the booklet to check. I thought I'd lost it.
I would also just like to clarify that I wasn't given a tourist visa when my residents visa was cancelled, but rather a note in my passport stating that my visa had been shortened and that I had to leave the country before 14th Dec.
I have spoken to the Chinese Embassy in London and they have informed me that in order to issue me a new visa they must first clear it with the PSB in Fuzhou. |
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