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trapezius
Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Land of Culture of Death & Destruction
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 Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| So the question that might be asked is, if the Americans and Europeans find it hard to adapt to the Middle East and Africa cultures, why would the Africans and Arabs of the Middle East find it easier to adapt to the Western culture? |
I already answered that:
The Saudis who do go abroad to liberal Western countries are the type who actually like most of the tenets of liberalism, be it freedom of speech, freedom of action, choice of food/drink (wink wink), etc. And that's a tiny minority of Saudis.
The vast majority of Saudis would not be able to nor want to adapt themselves to Western culture, habits, and practices if they found themselves in the West.
So, no, they are not superior to Westerners in that regard, or vice versa.
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And besides, that's really a simple question to answer, from a basic logical/mathematical point of view.
Westerners are allowed to do A, B, C, D, and E back in their countries, and indeed used to doing. When they come to Arab countries, they are told they can only do A and B.
Arabs can only do A and B in their own countries. When they go to the West, they can carry on doing A and B. And they can do more, if they so wish. (which most of them do, at least the young ones)
It boils down to this:
How come I can pour all the water from a 500 ml container into a 1 litre container, but not the other way around?
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sheikh radlinrol
Joined: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 1222
Location: Spain
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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Do Mia Xanthi and 007 have any evidence at all to support their claims that Americans and Britons have more difficulty than other nationalities in ''adapting'' to the Middle East.
I spent 7 years in Kuwait and KSA and was never aware of this!
I certainly met some strange characters but I suspect they would have been strange anywhere. |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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When they come to Arab countries, they are told they can only do A and B.
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Most people of my acquaintance knew the regulations in KSA before agreeing to take up residence there.
Besides, you seem to have a rather narrow view of what people 'can' do. Sure, rules regarding social behaviour and dress (at least in public) are much stricter in KSA and much of the ME than they are in much of the "West". But for most of us, there's more to life than being 'able' to wear miniskirts in public or go down to the pub every night. By way of compensation, people who come here to work also find that they can have a generous salary, free private education for their sprogs, access to cheap labour, spacious, rent-free living quarters and an often relaxing work environment. They presumably would not be able to find all, or any of this, in their home countries. |
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trapezius
Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Land of Culture of Death & Destruction
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Most people of my acquaintance knew the regulations in KSA before agreeing to take up residence there. |
I am not arguing that, or excusing them. I am just giving a reason for why a few/some/lot of them find it difficult to adapt.
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| But for most of us, there's more to life than being 'able' to wear miniskirts in public or go down to the pub every night. |
Yes, you are right, there is A LOT MORE. Is that all you can come up with, as far as social/cultural differences go between Arab and Western countries? Those aren't even that important, for a lot.
How about:
Museums
Movie theaters
Gyms
Martial arts clubs
Other clubs/special interest groups
"Miniskirts"
"Drinking"
Libraries
Condition of roads
How people drive
Being able to talk, JUST TALK, to members of the opposite sex
Dating (no, I am not talking about sex here)
And there is more
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| By way of compensation, people who come here to work also find that they can have a generous salary, free private education for their sprogs, access to cheap labour, spacious, rent-free living quarters and an often relaxing work environment. They presumably would not be able to find all, or any of this, in their home countries. |
Well exactly. That's why they come here, even though that list I made exists, isn't it?
Like I said, I am not arguing about or defending those who come here and then complain a lot. I am just giving reasons, is all. |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Is that all you can come up with, as far as social/cultural differences go between Arab and Western countries? |
Actually, I never even started making such a list, because, unlike you, I don't see the world as being neatly divided between "Arab" and "Western" countries. I have been in "Western" countries with few cultural diversions, not to mention appalling drivers (and roads). I have also been to Arab countries with wonderful museums and libraries (far superior to those found in many "Western" nations) - as well as opportunities for 'drinking' and 'dating', should one be interested. And yes, some well-maintained roads and decent drivers too.
But I must say that, even if we confine ourselves to KSA, you seem to have had a very sheltered existence. Gyms abound here in Riyadh (admittedly I can't offer an opinion on 'martial arts clubs') and there are plenty of social clubs catering to a wide range of interests. And yes, you can talk to members of the opposite sex - personally, I do so many times a day. Indeed, if you are interested 'dating' is a distinct possibility too.
Of course, this being KSA, none of the above will come to you - you have to be prepared to be proactive and make your own life here. You never know, you might even like it. |
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007
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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| trapezius wrote: |
[How about:
Museums
Movie theaters
Gyms
Martial arts clubs
Other clubs/special interest groups
"Miniskirts"
"Drinking"
Libraries
Condition of roads
How people drive
Being able to talk, JUST TALK, to members of the opposite sex
Dating (no, I am not talking about sex here)
And there is more |
It seems Trapezius is not aware of the �exposed� and �hidden� magical life of the magic kingdom, and is not aware that what he mentioned in his list already exist in the magic kingdom, including Martial arts clubs or Saudi Dating!
The magic kingdom is full of Martial arts, from Saudi Taekwondo to Saudi International Judo Federation (source: http://www.araboo.com/dir/saudi-martial-arts).
Personally, I used to attend Judo sessions in Abha with a trainer who hold a Black belt in Judo, and was the Champion of Africa in Judo in the 80s.
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| Dating (no, I am not talking about sex here) |
Well, dating, using internet or other means, exist in the magic kingdom as in any other country.
In the magic kingdom, dating is �hidden� or �secrect� between the two sexes (as in any country). And I know some expats who got married in the magic kingdom through dating using the internet.
Now, if you are interested in Saudi dating (of course I do not mean for sex!  ) try this site: http://www.singles-bar.com/Saudi-Arabia-dating-girls.asp
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| Being able to talk, JUST TALK, to members of the opposite sex |
You are free to talk, just talk, to the opposite sex, but with respect and dignity, and without �hidden� agenda!
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| Other clubs/special interest groups |
There are plenty of clubs/special interest groups in the magic kingdom, from Mountains climbing to cycling. |
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Mia Xanthi
Joined: 13 Mar 2008
Posts: 955
Location: why is my heart still in the Middle East while the rest of me isn't?
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 8:35 pm Post subject: adapting |
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I think that rather than discussing as list of things you can and cannot do, it might profit us more to determine exactly what is meant by "adapting" to Saudi culture. Does "adapting" mean that you have to like the culture? Does it mean that you accept the culture and are accepted into it?
I guess when I said that some westerners don't adapt well, I meant that they cannot make their peace with this place. Many continue to be exceedingly negative about KSA and its culture long after finding plenty of western-style diversions here. The ones that I consider to have adapted are able to find some enjoyment in Saudi culture itself, and not just in diversions that remind them of home. I'm talking about the ones who don't necessarily love everything about KSA, but who don't feel the need to complain constantly about it and even manage to feel some affection for the Saudis and their customs. |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 11:00 pm Post subject: Chameleons and leopards |
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With all these generalizations about "Westerners" and "Middle Easterners", etc., I think we're forgetting what I'd say is an important factor: the adaptability of the individual.
I've known some "Westerners" who at least seemed to adapt quite easily to Saudi Arabia (insofar as any "Westerner" is able to/allowed to). Some were Muslims, but others were not. Others had great difficulty or simply couldn't
And here in the States, I've seen many "non-Westerners" who at least seemed to adapt quite easily. Again, others find it very hard or impossible.
I think what I'll call "the adaptability level" of individuals can vary a very great deal, no matter what culture/society they may come from.
Some are chameleons; others are leopards whose spots never change. |
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trapezius
Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Land of Culture of Death & Destruction
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| Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 12:04 am Post subject: |
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| You are free to talk, just talk, to the opposite sex, but with respect and dignity, and without �hidden� agenda! |
Last time I checked, a Saudi lady was humiliated, kidnapped, incarcerated, manhandled, and tortured (mentally) by mutawwas for having a business lunch with her business colleague in Starbucks in Riyadh.
Cleopatra and 007, you don't have to tell me about the hidden "pleasures" in this country. I have lived here a hell of a lot longer than either of you, and am aware of such goings on in the country. (including some belief-defying sordid stories about the high and mighty which are relayed to me by my students)
But the fact remains, those activities have to be carried out in clandestine (because they are illegal), as 007 himself said "dating is �hidden� or �secrect�". However, I have no clue what he meant by the bolded part below:
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| In the magic kingdom, dating is �hidden� or �secrect� between the two sexes (as in any country). In the magic kingdom, dating is �hidden� or �secrect� between the two sexes (as in any country). |
Is he saying that dating is 'hidden' or 'secret' in all countries? What a joke.
Yes, all sorts of activities exist here, some hidden, some legal. The problem is, some are hidden (and therefore ILLEGAL), and the ones which are legal, are still not widespread, known, or advertised, or indeed, easily doable due to the unique restrictions in this country.
You are not going to sit there and tell me with a straight face that there is no difference between the KSA and say, Singapore, Canada, or even Egypt, with regards to the quantity and quality of [legal] available diversions/activities.
That's the whole point of this discussion.
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| I guess when I said that some westerners don't adapt well, I meant that they cannot make their peace with this place. Many continue to be exceedingly negative about KSA and its culture long after finding plenty of western-style diversions here. |
That's also true about Muslims/Arabs in the West. [It is called as "being human"] Have you not seen pictures in the news of Muslims/Arabs IN WESTERN COUNTRIES who have made their homes there, and a lot indeed born there, holding placards reading "Allah will destroy the West", "Hell with the US", and even more despicable things? |
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