Job Discussion Forums

[willraber]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/global/main.jhtml?xml=/global/2008/04/21/noindex/echina19.xml

Nice article; a bit fluffy, but at least they mentioned Dave's ESL Cafe.

[Justin Trullinger]

Nice to see an article that gives a fairly positive view of the field, for a change. But some of the info is a bit suspect, and DELTA isn't a degree...




Justin

[fluffyhamster]

[Justin Trullinger]

[spiral78]

I haven't taken the time to read Toner's Tome, but EFL is a legit acronym and there are lots of very reputable MA and other upper-level qualifications out there that are research-based and really useful. And, as Justin point out, they are the minimum for many (if not most) of the better jobs in our field.

Toner's off -track. I am guessing that he needs to go 'home' and get into some 'real' career - leaving those of us who make real careers out of TEFL/TESL out of his blogs (since he's clearly not personally acquainted with higher quals in the field).

[fluffyhamster]

Justin, I don't think my training (a CTEFLA, now the CELTA) was necessarily bad or substandard, it just was what it was (for an off-peak relatively provincial language school, not that doing it at IH London or some other more bustling center would've made it that much more at its core), as the CELTA now just is what it is, and I recognize that without even entry-level certificates, ELT would be worse than it is (or consequently, thankfully isn't, if you prefer). I am however sceptical of exactly what one learns on expensive MA courses, to improve one's teaching, that is not available in books (which anyone can buy, and believe me, I have bought many) or discussed in the better staffrooms or on forums such as this, especially when one would prefer to remain or is expected to still be what is essentially a teacher (we all hear, for example, of university posts which involve mainly teaching), and I think that given the time and FREEDOM, many teachers become a lot more 'real' (Spiral78), come to know themselves, their interests, strengths and limitations, than might be possible from following some pressurized cookie-cutter course full of exercises in what is ultimately conformity-seeking ('That is an interesting idea, but we are more entitled to imposing our theories and opinions on you than you are to helping yourself by following your concrete proposals for your own personal development'). If teachers and/or schools are BAD, students will eventually vote with their feet, but which way should they turn when all teachers start looking and sounding alike?

I ultimately don't know what good practice is other than what I am trying my darnedest at (to achieve) at whatever moment in time, and no finite course can ever really provide continual inspiration and insight much beyond its end or limits, no matter how good it is; then, there is that whole notion of the "classical mess" that is more limiting and blinkering than empowering and liberating. I no longer need drill seargents to point me to the moon that I see (even though it often appears a long way off still!). I can think of nothing worse than being in a room with not only "fellow" students, but also trainers who might not (hell, probably won't!) share my own, personal vision (that's not to say that I am a pain to work "with" though, because I (can? Am allowed to?) get on with teaching my own classes LOL).

[spiral78]

fluffy, I have to say that it's clear you haven't pursued an MA - it's far from being any sort of indoctrination. There is substantial recognition these days in all the reputable post-grad programs that I'm aware of (I work with people who graduated from at least four different universities with MA TESL TEFL or applied linguistics) that there is no such thing as one-size-fits all, in reference to either individual instructors or teaching contexts or individual students.

As for the knowledge being available in books, I can say that in research-based MA programs, we must first take from the books what we think will work in our specific situations, then try it out, then write about what did/did not actually apply, and to what degree. It's substantially more than what one can get by just reading (and I'm a great believer in reading).

The programs aren't cookie-cutter, by any means. Nor are they focused on indoctrinating anyone into any specific thread of the literature in our field. They are rather wide-ranging courses requiring us to explore our own teaching contexts from every angle, including what approaches and methods fit our personal 'interests, strengths, and motivations.'

There are no drills in good MA programs.

And, ultimately, they increase both our professionalism and (I have to say it) our income.

[fluffyhamster]

Well, I was frothing a bit (it can help discussion along, indeed help reveal if there is a point worth discussing), and I have to admit that I haven't pursued/earned an MA (although ones from unis such as Birmingham do appeal more than most, and I would recognize and hopefully listen with interest to those who've done them or comparable courses). I have however bought many of the sort of books that seem to be used in higher courses (and more besides), looked at course outlines and some free materials etc, and ultimately think that improvements in classroom teaching and learning (i.e. syllabus and material design, and derived pedagogy) boil down to increased awareness of the language, its lexis and grammar (i.e. lexicogrammar); if the base facts/description is sound, "SLA" etc will follow.

Basically, if MAs aren't there to indoctrinate, then why must teachers do specifically them? I'd've thought I could learn more over the course of a few decades (only one so far) of teaching and reflection and reading dozens if not hundreds of books that take my fancy than from a few years of more or less cramming (I don't view it as indoctrination when I have the choice over what I read, and often these will be the same books as on MA courses - but sometimes, not).

I just get the impression sometimes that quite a few people just do a Dip or an MA (after not reading much at all between the CELTA and Dip or MA) just to be told what to think (or rather, say) in order to earn more money and perhaps even to get out of teaching those pesky students as much!

[Justin Trullinger]

I certainly wouldn't say that your CTEFLA was substandard. I wasn't there. (Some were/are substandard, which is a regrettable reality in all fields. Sometimes things just don't hit the bullseye.)

When I suggested that your training experiences might have been negative, I was referring to:

[fluffyhamster]

I guess I have just never been that excited or impressed or whatever by formal education. I somehow managed to get reasonable O levels despite being surrounded by disruptive idiots and not revising; A levels were more interesting (because the subjects that I studied were entirely my choice) and again, I did fine and got into a reasonable university without really trying.

This next bit may shock some, but I didn't go to more than a half dozen lectures during my entire time at university (tutorials however were compulsory, and a good job too, probably!); I did however have a fair bit more dosh than the average student (don't ask how) so I could buy a lot more books (often to supplement the library heavy demand section stuff which often was NEVER AVAILABLE!), some of which turned out to be not half-bad and supply me with somewhat differing takes on things in my essays and assignments. "Somehow" I managed to get a degree (not with honours, but never mind, because I had done so much karate that I could cover up to three meters and land a blow before my sparring partners even had time to block, and could hold ten pints or more in the pub afterwards ).

I then did a postgraduate diploma in Chinese, and again didn't really attend regularly for more than the first few months of the year, but I kept up with all the assigments and translations (while some 100% attendees were after six months it seemed still weeping and pulling their hair out over how to use a character dictionary, or fretting over the final exams to the extent that some decided not to sit them).

After the C-E written translation exam, everyone but me was asking each other the same question: what did one of the characters mean?! (Anyone who'd invested in an extra book or two on the development of Chinese writing, or Classical Chinese, would've known it stood for 'Confucius'). Not to blow my own trupmet, but I was surprised that even those who'd enrolled on a course were still unwilling to invest that little bit (more) in their education; whatever learning they've undertaken or gained since the course must've been pretty hard worn still (me, I still have a fair bit of grammar learning and research that I intend to do, which will be possible by, yup you've guessed it, the pile of books that I bought).

I've probably made my views on the CELTA clear enough by now (and not just in this thread), and have mentioned elsewhere my specific experiences of doing the CTEFLA. But I suppose that I'm extrapolating a bit too much from the CELTA to the Dip or MA level (that being said, it is still "just" a difference of "level" rather a complete change of type/subject), and I think it is possible to be up on things (and even ahead of the pack in some respects) if you take a continuing interest in "your" field. I'd still be a bit concerned with an MA though that things would either go too slowly, or not so much too fast but be taking too many things for granted, not making the relevance (or rather, potential irrelevance) of some things clear (to those who might care to dsagree, if it were not for the fact that they wanted to pass) - you may have been lucky and had great tutors for your MAs, but I've heard of some who struggle if (to borrow Englishdroid.com's term for CELTA trainees) they aren't 'obsequious' enough. It would however be interesting and valuable to "finally" prove to some "authority" that I can indeed teach satisfactorily and develop professionally (that's what I've been doing for years), certainly beyond certificate level, even if it would cost thousands of pounds for the "privelege" of doing so. (PS: I do actually enjoy discussions with colleagues, peers, if that's what me more using them as sounding boards than they me can be called ("discussions"!); amazingly, some have even changed my mind about certain things! ).

Hope that didn't sound too cynical or misanthropic or whatever. I'm actually really interested in what other people have made of (thought of, as well as in the sense of profited from (by?)) their education (I've always been interested in the pedagogy of the martial arts at least - that whole shu ha ri thing, Bruce Lee's innovations etc), and what makes people feel they are ready to "not tell" other people how things are (or at least might seem!).

[spiral78]

I did the MA by distance through Birmingham. Obsequious-ness not required by any means. Lots of reading beyond the lists was needed. No lectures.

Essentially, fluffy, a good MA program bears nearly no resemblence (spelling? sorry, it's too early here) to any basic newbie-level course, including CELTA, where the goal is to quickly give trainees some useful tools to get started, and to try to weed out those few who really can't be credible in a classroom for whatever reason.

[fluffyhamster]

OK, yes, point taken, Spiral. In no way does any decent MA resemble a CELTA content- or study-wise. You get to be your own guide, and end up "revolutionizing" ELT in countless ways (in Outer Mongolia or wherever else you can land a job) with the fruits of your own research (sounds a bit like, well, ELT in general, then). And yes, I guessed there aren't many if any lectures, which is probably just as well really. I still don't know though if I really want or need (or ultimately can afford, or will really recoup(erate LOL) enough) to do one - I'd either prefer to just keep on buying books with the money and pottering around the field (working on in the "lower" echelons) under my own steam, or try to get into teaching Chinese in the UK. Or I could try my hand at professional belly dancing.

Anyway, like I asked before, what specifically was the best thing since sliced bread on your MA (Spiral)? I have a rough idea of what Birmingham offers (and I liked the options that were available when I last looked a year or two ago), but some inside details would be nice.

[Llamalicious]

[fluffyhamster]

She speak such goooood English, and she really deserve that top-whack rate!

[Justin Trullinger]

Who knows, fluffy, you might enjoy an MA- certainly seem to have an aptitude for writing.

I hold an entry level cert, Trinity rather than CELTA, though I think we can agree that they're awfully similar.

Some of the reasons that I decided to go for a masters rather than the DELTA or other diploma have to do with my experiences on that course. Regardless what you choose, if anything, you have to admit, thought, that a DELTA and a masters degree have relatively little to do with each other. One is a professional diploma, the other an academic degree. One is a great deal more extensive that the other, as well as being a great deal more expensive...many differences.

In response to this, though: