Job Discussion Forums

Justin Trullinger · Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 6:39 pm Post subject:

I wondered when you'd turn up on this thread, Rus- good to see you; you're always a good read.

And you usually go straight to fundamentally difficult questions:

rusmeister · Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 867 Location: Russia

Very relevant stuff. I'm rushed now, but would like to deal with the classroom effects of all of this later. One thought- We might be shocked to learn that the beliefs we so readily deride among the students we face could have deep and extensive thought and tradition behind them of which we are completely unaware, so we write them off as "rubes" or "mingmongs", when it turns out that it is we who are the rubes. Our attempts to "enlighten" our students, could, by their lights, really be attempts to "endarken" them. And their lights are in spectra that we can't even see. The first thing for us to do is become aware of them. Of course we should ask whether they are ultimately right or wrong. But the first step is to become aware of what they hold true.

So, for example, if our ESL materials include pictures of women-warriors (soldiers in an unspecified desert-like country), and to them this is an attack on the family, which must be held sacred,for reasons that are deeper than a post here could represent, then your efforts will turn them more against you and you could find yourself in the news like that British woman.

Most non-western cultures do hold that what you believe DOES matter.

gaijinalways · Joined: 29 Nov 2005 Posts: 2279

rusmeister · Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 867 Location: Russia

johnslat · Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 12:58 pm Post subject:

For fanatics, religious beliefs are certainties - worth killing and dying for.

Justin Trullinger · Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 1:58 pm Post subject:

johnslat · Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 3:41 pm Post subject:

Dear Justin,
That's why I used the word "fanatics." And logically, just because all fanatics hold their beliefs to be certainties that does not mean that all people who hold their beliefs to be certainties are fanatics.
Regards,
John

rusmeister · Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 867 Location: Russia

Well, John, it did look from the original post that you were equating the concepts.

Because pluralism and relativism are the dominant ideologies in western academia, business and government, the idea that people who believe that beliefs are purely personal, and that no philosophy or faith really reflects an absolute truth that affects everybody is a widespread attitude, and this results in a cultural snobbery - an attitude of superiority, of ESL teachers marching out to "bear the white man's burden" (to put a new twist on the famous concept) and colonize those "backwards rubes" with our "cultural enlightenment" and make sure that their "silly" concept of knowing the truth is quickly shown to be nonsense on the background of the myriad of worldwide beliefs. I keep trying to say that a teacher that doesn't realize that might actually bring about a backlash, rather than the "enlightenment" he seeks.

The one question that is always avoided in the pluralist world is whether the cosmology under question is true (correct) or not.

thelmadatter · Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 6:59 pm Post subject: cultural hegemony

Nice to see this thread coming back to teaching once in a while. I like your last post rusmeister. Under cultural relativism, all cultures should be considered equal... however, if youre teaching those in a culture that absolutely believe that they are superior and have the "right" to impose their will on others... do you "respect" that culture by submitting yourself to that mindset, reinforcing their sense of superiority, or do you assert that other cultures, including *gasp* Western ones/your own are equal to theirs?

Teaching cultural relativism (overtly or not) only works in cultures that can accept the idea that someone different from them can be equal and who, at their heart, just simply want to co-exist with everybody else or be left alone. However, if a belief system at its heart believes that it has the right to dominate others... all attempts to appease it will have the opposite effect of what is intended. We saw this with Hitler ... why would appeasing any other belief system be any different?

Or more simply, if I cant say to a group of students "I am your equal as a human being.", I dont need to be there.

Stephen Jones · Joined: 21 Feb 2003 Posts: 4124

rusmeister · Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 867 Location: Russia

arioch36 · Joined: 21 Jan 2003 Posts: 3589

John

johnslat · Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 3:24 am Post subject:

From the Oxford Dictionary:

noun 1 a person filled with excessive zeal, especially for an extreme political or religious cause.

Please notice the adjectives "excessive" and "extreme."

Regards,
John

arioch36 · Joined: 21 Jan 2003 Posts: 3589

So does the willingness to die for what you believe in make you a fanatic, this is question one.
Question two, is fantaicism a religious phenomenon. I believe it is a mistake by governmnent to make one person (ie bin Laden) the face of evil, evil is in the heart of us all.
But, if 60% of the world believe in God, and 60% of the fanatics use the veil of religion, then I would suggest that fanaticism it is not really a religious phenomenon, but a social one.. I am not saying I think this is the case, only that it needs to be considered.

People who believe strongly in ideals .. good or bad? The good is that they will spend more of their life helping others. The bad is that they will use others belief to advance their own agenda.
Overall I consider a willingness to die for what you believe in to be a virtue. The willingness to kill others for not believing to be horrible .. and unfortunately human

rusmeister · Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 867 Location: Russia

Interesting comments.
Jerry, I think you're going OT - the question is how these beliefs, including yours, impact your behavior and attitudes as a teacher in the classroom. Personally, I'd say that you have taken a really one-sided view of religion, but this is not the place to debate that (perhaps unfortunately).

John, now we need to define what you mean by 'excessive' and 'extreme'. Surely the Christian martyrs were seen to be extreme by Romans who were going from pagan to atheist - but from the Christian point of view, where this life is small potatoes compared to eternity, the martyrs were making an incredibly brave self-sacrifice with a view on that eternity, and unlike suicide bombers of today, didn't drag others with them. Neither were they committing suicide. They asked to be allowed to live and worship their God. They simply could not sell out their faith for the sake of a few more years of life. If that is "extreme" then I would say you are assuming and imposing on others a materialist view that this life is all there is. If you walk into a classroom that is what you will be doing to your students. I'm not saying that the Muslim (or whatever) students that some teachers here deal with are right, but it is necessary to understand the best and finest arguments for a position before passing reasoned judgement on it, and most people don't bother to do that. They come from unexamined gut reactions, and then they patronize or condemn the culture around them if it is hostile to their own worldview, and this can come out in the classroom.

Good questions, Arioch. Thus words (like "fanatic") are used as propaganda, to set up an emotional attitude towards a phenomenon or position to defeat it as a strawman before it can be rationally and thoroughly defined and examined.