Job Discussion Forums

[MikeySaid]

Anyone here at Dave's do this as part of their job?

It's a service I would like to be able to offer (eventually)...

If anyone has information... it would be appreciated.


(Is this the field of speech pathologists?)

[Justin Trullinger]

[soapdodger]

Before anyone starts screaming "sexist", or whatever "-ist" takes their fancy, the following is the product of objective analysis over a number of years, with a bit of generally-recognised psychology thrown in.

Why talk exactly like a native speaker at all? Communicating your ideas - if you're lucky enough to have any - clearly and effectively in the desired language should be enough, and it usually is for well-balanced, intelligent learners. Some, very few in fact, learners have a natural ear and good reproductive skills and can quite effortlessly reproduce native or near-native pronunciation - they just do it because they can and think nothing of it, and more power to them.
Then there are the others. The ones who consciously want to adopt native pronunciation. Now they are very interesting indeed. They never, ever want to imitate regional dialect, if it is UK English they want, then it must be a la Prince Charles....high nigh brine kiy. Like the Prince, they probably think sex is what coal comes in. These kind of students are almost always women, and I have no doubt at all that they are perfectly aware of the snob value of an upper-class accent, which is why they aspire to one. It is a recognised fact that women are much more class-conscious than men - they almost never marry below their own social class, and there is basic biological sense behind that. What female students with the inclination towards picking up rolling vowel sounds fail completely to understand, though, is that they are never going to succeed in pulling it off. What's worse is they entirely miss the point that nobody likes a snob, and nobody likes a snob less than the British. More than that, the average Brit is going to be not a little outraged at a foreigner trying to put on airs and graces - they have little enough time for British people who speak RP as it is! All these princesses manque are likely to get for their trouble in London is a punch on the nose. In a nutshell, I think that wishing to imitate a particular model of pronunciation because of a desire for social status is a sign of some personality disorder and should be discouraged, although when I do meet people in the advanced stages of this illness, which comes complete with mannerisms and a carefully honed vocabulary I do nothing to discourage them, in fact I go out of my way to explain that Newcastle Upon Tyne is the new cultural hub of Britain and should definitely be on their itinarary next time they visit the jolly old Sceptred Isle!

[fluffyhamster]

ELT may not exactly reduce accents, but it sure has been keen to promote some (RP, GA), regardless of the costs.

[Justin Trullinger]

Hey soap- long time no see; welcome back.

I'm not going to scream any "ists" at you, though I could think of some fun ones. (Is "anticlassism" valid?) Just going to share my experience, primarily with Spanish natives, which is, based on an entirely unscientific sampling, people I know or have taught, men are about as likely as women to pick up pseudo-native annoying pronunciation habits. And yeah, whether you like a snob or not, some of them are enough to make your ears hurt.

But accent reduction isn't necessarily about trying to obtain an accent. Especially not about obtaining one which is unnatural for your situation. Funny, most of the doggone annoying yank or brit impersonators I've met in my life have done it all by themselves.

Accent reduction can come in quite handy as a teaching skill in a few situations I run into a lot, though.

A) local English teachers. I really feel fine about trying to help local non-native speaking English teachers to have as neutral an accent as possible. Seems to help keep their students from picking up on the wrong features, and winding up incomprehensible.

B) People who aren't comprehensible. Some people don't have a natural ear, and in spite of studying for a long time, and understanding fairly well, some of them can't make themselves understood. Specific accent reduction work can get them into a comprehensible zone.

C) People with specific disabilities that get in the way of language learning- We've had a hearing impaired student. Specifics of sound productions were necessary for her to get anything out. Some recent programs have also put us in touch with some of the more "working class" elements of Ecuador, and many of them are missing teeth. Frequently many teeth. This impedes clear pronunciation in many ways. Nice to be able to help.

That said- I agree with some of your rant. When students come to me and say "I want to learn to sound _________." (American, British, whatever) I tell them to forget it- hardly any adult learners of a language can every truly make it sound native. And I see no reason why they should, if they could. But most language learners can reduce their accent, and some really need to. (But not so they can sound like Prince Charles, just so I can figure out what they're talking about.)


best,
Justin

[naturegirl321]

I think that if it inhibits other poel understanding them, then they should reduce their accent. BUt one thing I don't get is people who only want X accent. I just got a call from a parent only wanting teachers with American accents.

And have you noticed that after teaching for a while, your accents have changed. I've lost a bit of my Ameircan accent thanks to teaching in British schools, but I don't have a British accent either. I guess I have an internatoinal accent.

[jpvanderwerf2001]

And have you noticed that after teaching for a while, your accents have changed. I've lost a bit of my Ameircan accent thanks to teaching in British schools, but I don't have a British accent either. I guess I have an internatoinal accent.

Absolutely. I left Minnesota with one of the biggest "Ya, you betcha" Fargo accents one could ever want to hear (if one could ever want to hear that). Not anymore--it has all but disappeared (except when I'm talking to my mom over Skype )!

[Mike_2007]

Last time I was in the UK I was chatting in the street to some guy signing people up for some charity or other. I explained I didn't have a UK address because I don't live there whereupon he informed me that he could hear my South African accent!

[Marcoregano]

What surprises me is that some people manage to keep their accents. Seems logical that after X years in foreign climes you would end up with a neutral, international 'accent'. Having said that, I often get taken for an Aussie! (I'm originally, a scouser - though never had a really strong scouse accent).

[Stephen Jones]

[Justin Trullinger]

Accents and accent "drift" are a really interesting field of study. Another one is convergence or divergence of accents- a lot of studies seem to indicate that affinity is a big factor. If you spend a lot of time with people you feel "in" with, you tend to pick up some of their sounds and language usages.

On the other hand, if you don't feel that affinity, the convergence is greatly reduced, if it happens at all.

It's common to hear an "original" regional accent which has reduced and been all but lost over the years come back when speaking to a parent or sibling. Also common for married couples' patterns of speech to gradually get more similar over the years.

Interesting historical trivia- Henry Kissinger used to take "accent maintaining" classes to help keep his foreign accent after all the years in the US. Affinity?


Best,
Justin

[soapdodger]

Justin, Interesting one. I spent ages 4-16 in Scotland, but never picked up a Scottish accent ( although I can imitate one perfectly, which is great for phone scams....has even been known to fool close friends!!!). I've often wondered why, and your "in" or not "in" explanation fits. It wasn't that I didn't want to be "in" with Scots, if you want to experience real racism, just be English in Scotland, Wales or Ireland ( I've done 2 out of 3 and have physical scars to remember it by, but no hard feelings, I believe it works the other way round too).

[Justin Trullinger]

Very Interesting, Soap-

It's interesting to me exactly how much "in" and "out" in the various cold rainy islands around there can be determined by regional accent, or sometimes lack thereof. (RP strikes me as a funny regionless phenomenon, saying more about economics than geography.)

I've been an American outsider in all the areas you mention- and though my accent is much changed from my place of origin, I'm still identifiably such to virtually anyone in your neck of the woods. It was an interesting experience to be so physically inconspicous, but so immediately identified as "not from round here" whenever I spoke.

That said, being English is different- in Scotland, I'm immediately "foreign," but nobody blames me for any of the invasions of the last 500 years, for the centralization of the economy, or for anything at all to do with the north sea's oil... (Realizing that you're no more responsible for any of it than I am, yet old feelings die hard.)


Best,
justin

[MikeySaid]

It's one of those sort of odd requests you get when doing ELT, one which I've encountered when talking to pilots.

I think it would be an area of strength for me, although I worry that I am just sort of a mimic. I pick up regional accents in Spanish very quickly, and find that copying other people's speech patterns is quite easy, so I am sure I would need quite a bit of formal training to learn how to get a Japanese person to differentiate between r's and l's, or particularly... to teach a Spanish speaker the � and other flat vowel sounds.

I simply don't know how to do that, yet.

[naturegirl321]

I spent four months in the highlands, in Ullapool, Scotland and developed a thick accent in the short time I was there. But I didn't have much contact with people other than Scots.