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Gab · Joined: 09 Apr 2008 Posts: 26 Location: Canada

Hi everyone, I was trying to explain the reasoning behind this sentence structure and was hoping someone could validate:

A) ''Our lives are closer and closer together''

vs.

B) ''Our lives are together closer and closer''

Sentence A is correct because in this sentence ''closer'' is a degree modifier, and must therefor be placed BEFORE the adjective.

...right? hahaha

Gab · Joined: 09 Apr 2008 Posts: 26 Location: Canada

Hmmm... I'm not sure if both structures are acceptable.

Imagine this:

A) The ball is very big.

vs.

B) The ball is big very.

That's the same structure I had before, but these words should make it clear that sentence B is NOT acceptable in standard English, which is what this student wants to learn.

gaijinalways · Joined: 29 Nov 2005 Posts: 2279

I think both sentences sound unnatural for a N. American.

rusmeister · Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 867 Location: Russia

Nevertheless, there are rules and they can be taught (and learned) and enable meaningful communication. (One of my peeves at Dave's is people who try to say that rules are artificial)

For example, Jerry, when teaching adverbs of frequency you discover that always and never are mid-position only, usually, sometimes and often can be at the beginning, mid, or end positions, and rarely is the odd bird that can be mid or end, but not beginning, unless you are using inversion for emphasis (Rarely do I go to...)

Students say, "Oh!", study it for a minute, and then don't make any more mistakes (usually). (Inversion for emphasis is an advanced concept, so I don't teach that to beginners.

arioch36 · Joined: 21 Jan 2003 Posts: 3589

Gaijin Always

Gab · Joined: 09 Apr 2008 Posts: 26 Location: Canada

That's my fault, I extracted that piece from a longer sentence, because that was the part causing confusion.

In short, my question is: IN GENERAL, must degree modifiers be placed BEFORE the adjectives they modify?

And in that particular sentence ''Our lives are closer and closer together'', as strange as it sounds, would you all agree that ''closer'' is a degree modifier, and ''together'' is an adjective?

Thanks!

johnslat · Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 3:34 pm Post subject:

But sometimes the position makes a BIG difference:

Only I know the right answer.
I only know the right answer.
I know the only right answer.

arioch36 · Joined: 21 Jan 2003 Posts: 3589

Bamby · Joined: 13 Oct 2007 Posts: 40

johnslat · Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:09 pm Post subject:

Dear Bamby,

B) ''Our lives are together closer and closer''

"For (B) maybe I would say: Our lives are close, together; or Together, our lives are close. You have to use the apostrophe when you use an independent clause with an dependent clause. What you did has nothing to do with a modifier."

First of all, I have to disagree regarding sentence A - it certainly makes sense to me.
As for what you wrote about sentence B, it (and sentence A) is a simple sentence, not a complex one. So, there is no "dependent clause", only a phrase (i.e. "closer and closer.") However, I think it's awkwardly phrased and would need a comma after "together."
In addition, I'm not at all sure what you meant by "you have to use the apostrophe." Do you mean that in a complex sentence, when the adverb clause begins the sentence, you need to use a comma at the end of the introductory adverb clause?

Regards,
John

Bamby · Joined: 13 Oct 2007 Posts: 40

johnslat · Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 6:42 pm Post subject: It's simple, not complex

Dear Bamby,
Pardon me for asking, but do you know the definition of a dependent clause as opposed to a phrase? Sentence B is a simple sentence, not a complex one. Complex sentences have independent clauses (i.e. sentences) and dependent clauses (noun, adjective and adverb.) A dependent clause MUST have a subject and a verb, but it has no complete idea (e.g. When I get home, . . . . .)
Sentence B has NO dependent clause. The phrase, " . . . closer and closer together." is NOT a dependent clause. There is NO dependent clause in sentence B. Simple sentences are independent clauses and have NO dependent clauses.
Since you may find my explanation incredible, here's a quote:

Definitions

Independent Clause (IC)

An independent clause is a group of words that contains a subject and verb and expresses a complete thought. An independent clause is a sentence.

Example: Jim studied in the Sweet Shop for his chemistry quiz. (IC)

Dependent Clause (DC)

A dependent clause is a group of words that contains a subject and verb but does not express a complete thought. A dependent clause cannot be a sentence. Often a dependent clause is marked by a dependent marker word.

Example: When Jim studied in the Sweet Shop for his chemistry quiz . . . (DC)
(What happened when he studied? The thought is incomplete.)

Please go to the link below for further explanation.

ttp://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/grammar/g_clause.html

Regards,
John

Bamby · Joined: 13 Oct 2007 Posts: 40

rusmeister · Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 867 Location: Russia

Hmmm. The government launched a program and actually put a man on the moon. Imagine if they placed as much national importance on teaching English and launched a program to produce a super textbook with authoritative definitions and methods that really worked...

Nah, they'd probably screw it up.

But it would be much more practical! Smile

Chancellor · Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 7:42 pm Post subject: