Job Discussion Forums

[randyj]

In the past I have successfully used "Functions of American English: Communication Activities for the Classroom", by Leo Jones and C. von Baeyer, CUP. It is true that a textbook and the teaching of oral English seems like an oxymoron, but Chinese students take a class much more seriously if the teacher has assigned a textbook. Also I am lazy and need structure in my life, but that's another story.

[Song&Dance]

[Song&Dance]

Language acquisition refers to the process of natural assimilation, involving intuition and subconscious learning, which is the product of real interactions between people where the learner is an active participant. Krashen

This eliminates text books and sound labs.

[Song&Dance]

Textbooks for oral English? An oxymoron.

[vikuk]

[kev7161]

I agree with Vikuk (what's happening to me?). I can appreciate the Uns and Song&Dances of our forums, but there is EFL reality and EFL wishes. We all wish our students had the time to devote to learning English while pushing aside their Maths and Sciences to do so. We all wish we could get a classroom of 50 to do some of these innovative and interesting new concepts in expanding their spoken English. We all wish that we foreigners would be given the job of installing a new, modern, state-of-the-art English program in each and every high school, grade school and university around the country. But the reality is, it probably is not going to happen. Most schools have seen the comings and goings of "professional" "English" "teachers" for many years now and they seem to put little stock in our credentials or experience. The students have seen these same teachers come and go as well (sometimes more than one in the same school year). With the exception of maybe a very few schools, most are still only going to give you that class once or twice a week to work your spoken English miracles.

I'll repeat what I said earlier, one doesn't HAVE to have a textbook to help with a SPOKEN English class, but a good series that at least has dialogs, topic ideas, reading aloud, pronunciation and enunciation guides, vocabulary, etc. can't hurt, in my opinion.

[Song&Dance]

Kev7176

You no longer have the right to CONVINCENGLY claim that it can't be done in China.

We have conclusively proven that it can and has been done in China at 6 different public unis. Eleven unrelated teachers, including two not so capable.

If you say it can't be done, that only means you can't do it.
But we also proved that even you can do it. Have you read the entire report, including the Appendix?

[kev7161]

No, I haven't read the rather lengthy things you have posted - - skimmed, yes, read, no. I wasn't lambasting you for your efforts and that's fine that 6 universities have allowed you to prove your methods. My point is there are a helluva lot more than 6 schools and there are thousands of ESL/EFL teachers here in China (and around the world) that either don't have the facilities, the experience, the educational background or, yes, even the desire to do what you are doing.

So, good for you that your program is working and maybe, just maybe, 5-10-20 years down the line it may well be implemented in a majority of schools here. My current job here is not your basic "Spoken English" class but I have done that before and I personally don't think I would choose your program to help my charges along. But this is a personal feeling/opinion that I have, not an attack on you or your ideas, okay?

PS: What's all this "you no longer have the right to . . ." stuff? I thought this was a (mostly) open forum where we can post (mostly) what we'd like as long as it's not insulting and personal?

[vikuk]

I also believe that an EFL course can be conducted without a text book - but I can also see how a text book, if used as a reference work, can be a useful tool for both student and teacher with regard to both lesson planning and language reflection. As a practical classroom tool the text book gives a start point for an FT to introduce their teaching and allows the student to better follow the course as it develops. If the FT chooses not to use a text book then they still need to construct materials from which they can plan their course - and allow the student to reference the teaching when outside the classroom. These materials may not be the traditional text book but they still follow the same purpose!!!!
However if you do choose to use a textbook, remember they can also become lesson killers if teaching is allowed to disintegrate into hyper boring bookwork that looses the student�s interest. Textbooks can also lull a student into a false sense of security if that student starts to think they can ignore their class work and totally depend on a textbook for their language learning. In short both FT and student shouldn't slavishly rely on textbook teaching/learning, since learning oral English usually needs to take on a more active communicative approach.
Like all tools - EFL textbooks should be used in an appropriate manner - and their limitations should be understood.

[Anda]

I get sick of hearing us, us, us all the time with no mention of local teachers. Students are not normally dependant upon one or two lessons of English from a foreign but 3 to 4 with a local teacher plus one or two with a foreign teacher. Local teachers usually teach vocabulary and give plenty of grammar exercisers but also in general don't require their students to do anything with the language like converse or write stories.


We fill a gap in getting a student to learn English provided we know how to teach / fill the gap. Yes we should be getting the student to write stories, read with correct pronunciation, and talk using sentences that they the students have composed instead of remembered.


One or two hours are sufficient under these conditions to bring about results within a year to get students to be able to carry on simple conversations in English.

For instance I have taught a high school graduate for 14 hours now over two weeks in two hour blocks and have made impressive headway with getting him to talk in English. I am getting him to use what he already knows in conversation and story writing. Sure I'm teaching some words but he has the framework already from school.

So yes we can get results if we want to put the effort in with one to two hours of input a week provided they are getting more hours from local teachers.

[vikuk]

[Anda]

Knowing how the locals teach allows foreign teachers to fill in the gaps that exist with the methods the locals employ. You don't need to work together with them to plan the course. Usually we get told to teach oral English and get left to do our own thing provided the students are happy. This is the way I have found it anyway since 1990 here in Asia. I normally work for public schools but I've also worked for universities and colleges.

[vikuk]

[kev7161]

I would like to see, once a month perhaps, all the English teachers (Chinese and foreign) get together for an hour or two and hash out all the things going on in the English department. What's working, what's not working, how all the teachers can work together to achieve the same goals, etc. No role-playing or games or other things of that sort, just discussions. Give and take ideas that may or may not stick. Look at the textbooks together, define what is each teacher's responsibilities. Even if things don't always work out the way we'd like, at least it would seem like there is no more "us" and "them" and, like Vikuk said, more "we" time.

[Anda]

Vikuk I am not bitter with the system as it is this system that provides me with a job and fairly good conditions. In actual fact I seek out places where I can teach my own way and get left alone. I get on well with most local teachers but usually there is one or two that are against foreign teachers� period. So is life.

Having teacher classes is normally counter productive as it builds up resentment with a number having an outsider come in that presents different thinking other than their normal way of teaching. Most are comfortable with a book form of teaching and the teaching to exam requirements method.

I have yet to find a place that the local teachers actually run an English teachers meeting in English.

So don't rock the boat, shut up and teach your own way without making noise. If your student�s marks go up then you get respect along with better treatment.