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cj750nomad
Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 252
Location: Beijing and
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 Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 10:55 am Post subject: |
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| I do not agree with what has been said about the r.p.f it can only be cancelled with passport in hand. |
This is what has been told to me by the PSB... but again ..I wouldn't tempt them.... |
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ralph wiggim
Joined: 12 Nov 2008
Posts: 95
Location: Somewhere between Itchy and Scratchy...
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| Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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Picture this:
Your rp is good for 12 months. You quit your job before then, say 6 months. The school notifies the PSB / visa people you left. In their system they void your visa.
You happily go about your life in China.
Never bother to get a new legal visa.
And decide one day that you must leave.
You attempt to exit the country.
NOW they have your passport /visa in hand, put a big ol CANCEL stamp on your visa and tell you it was canceled xxx number of days / months ago and you have been living illegally in their country.
Stop, do not pass go. Pay the fine or go to jail.
James your approach is less than intelligent. Bullheadedness might work in some countries but in China they have you outnumbered.
So take your own advice and do nothing. I applaud this decision. |
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cj750nomad
Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 252
Location: Beijing and
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| Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 5:59 am Post subject: |
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| Your rp is good for 12 months. You quit your job before then, say 6 months. The school notifies the PSB / visa people you left. In their system they void your visa. |
The PSB has informed me that they have to have the passport in hand to cancel the RP so as to place another visa in its place......if anyone has personal knowledge o what Ralph has described taking place...it may be worth more than conjecture from any of the current posters... |
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North China Laowei
Joined: 08 Apr 2008
Posts: 419
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| Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 8:41 am Post subject: See Below |
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| cj750nomad wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Your rp is good for 12 months. You quit your job before then, say 6 months. The school notifies the PSB / visa people you left. In their system they void your visa. |
The PSB has informed me that they have to have the passport in hand to cancel the RP so as to place another visa in its place......if anyone has personal knowledge o what Ralph has described taking place...it may be worth more than conjecture from any of the current posters... |
I am not engaging in conjecture. The PSB has told me exactly what they have told you in no uncertain terms. |
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cj750nomad
Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 252
Location: Beijing and
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| Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| I am not engaging in conjecture. The PSB has told me exactly what they have told you in no uncertain terms. |
But I am sure that neither one of us is suggesting to continue working on an old RP is the optimum way to go...even though I have and most likely (and I don't want to speak out of turn) many others as well |
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North China Laowei
Joined: 08 Apr 2008
Posts: 419
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| Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 10:36 am Post subject: |
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| cj750nomad wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I am not engaging in conjecture. The PSB has told me exactly what they have told you in no uncertain terms. |
But I am sure that neither one of us is suggesting to continue working on an old RP is the optimum way to go...even though I have and most likely (and I don't want to speak out of turn) many others as well |
No, no, I am not suggesting that either...I am simply trying to clarify that the scare tactics employed by another poster are not administratively nor factually accurate.
Under PSB rules, there is a 30-day extendable grace period when changing employers for a FT (I am not speaking about those on alien work permits, the rules are different) but for a FT to obtain gainful new employment. I am only speaking about those measures which are legally correct, nothing less, nothing more.
The 30-day grace period is extendable upon application to the local PSB and it depends upon circumstances, etc., etc. and the length of the extension is totally arbitrary, i.e., it depends upon the receiving officer at the PSB.
To repeat what I have said, in the case of a residence permit that is being cancelled, the PSB will require the passport and a signed statement from the FT consenting to the cancellation of the residence permit -- under normal circumstances.
Again, as I said, should there be an attempt made to cancel the residence permit, and should it be successful, it is most likely for exceptionally egregious reasons, that while egregious, may not be criminal. I am aware of only case case in which a residence permit was cancelled manu militarii and that was in the case of a foreign teacher who had sexually abused an under-aged student. The parents did not want the scandal of criminal charges and did not want the public knowledge of what happened so they refused to press charges. The college, however, compiled a very, very complete dossier on the matter, including numerous eyewitnesses and the dossier was thick enough and complete enough that the PSB acted.
The only other case of a residence permit being lifted was for excessive and repeatedly warned political involvement in matters upon which we foreign teachers should not delve into. In that case, there was a first warning, and a 30-days suspension of teaching activity, I believe, and when the political involvement continued, the person was exited with a 10-day cancelled visa. In this case, however, the person also received a 5-year no-return to China stamp in the passport.
If Ralph has concrete knowledge of other incidents perhaps he might wish to share it with us here. |
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YankeeDoodleDandy
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 428
Location: Xi'an , Shaanxi China
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| Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 10:50 am Post subject: I can tell you one |
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| I lived in Hefei in Anhui province for 3 and a half years. There was an American male teacher who liked to booze it up and party. He had a thing for massage parlors and barber shop girls. I only met him four or five times, but the headmaster of his school where he taught young children under the age of 14 years old would call me to cover his classes as he hadn't shown up. I helped him out on three or four occassions. Evidently he picked up a girl near USTC on Su Song Lu at an nondescript massage parlor and proceeded to take her back to his apartment. I don't know if drugs were involved, but he did like to drink. He tied her up and proceeded to use a knife to carve up the girl's back. Amid the screaming and her cries, he passed out. An hour or two later, the PSB broke into the apartment and recued the young woman. He was carted off to jail and stayed there for 10 days and then he was sent back to Florida. He had been in Asia for several years and he had lived in the Phillipines for 3 or 4 years. A friend of mine a Canadian visited him in prison and he had to pay 100 RMB to have a meal with him. This was in 2006. |
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ralph wiggim
Joined: 12 Nov 2008
Posts: 95
Location: Somewhere between Itchy and Scratchy...
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| Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 11:29 am Post subject: Re: I can tell you one |
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| YankeeDoodleDandy wrote: |
| I lived in Hefei in Anhui province for 3 and a half years. There was an American male teacher who liked to booze it up and party. He had a thing for massage parlors and barber shop girls. I only met him four or five times, but the headmaster of his school where he taught young children under the age of 14 years old would call me to cover his classes as he hadn't shown up. I helped him out on three or four occassions. Evidently he picked up a girl near USTC on Su Song Lu at an nondescript massage parlor and proceeded to take her back to his apartment. I don't know if drugs were involved, but he did like to drink. He tied her up and proceeded to use a knife to carve up the girl's back. Amid the screaming and her cries, he passed out. An hour or two later, the PSB broke into the apartment and recued the young woman. He was carted off to jail and stayed there for 10 days and then he was sent back to Florida. He had been in Asia for several years and he had lived in the Phillipines for 3 or 4 years. A friend of mine a Canadian visited him in prison and he had to pay 100 RMB to have a meal with him. This was in 2006. |
Man that's a great story. Sound like an ABC movie of the week. Is there more to it? More gory details? |
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North China Laowei
Joined: 08 Apr 2008
Posts: 419
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| Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 2:28 pm Post subject: Re: I can tell you one |
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Ralph,
Actually I think the ball is in your court on this one, so to speak.
You have strongly and repeatedly asserted the "you-will-be-deported" line of thought so perhaps instead of speaking in generalities, you might be kind enough to provide concrete details as to why you believe what you believe and how you came to believe it. That would greatly benefit all of us here, to the letter. Not that I am doubting you at all, it's just that it flies in the face of what others have experienced and have come to know.
All the best,
NCL |
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DistantRelative
Joined: 19 Oct 2004
Posts: 367
Location: Shaanxi/Xian
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| Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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Just curious. So what does one do if the school refuses to give the release letter, unless the FT submits to traveling to the PSB along with the employer, and having his RP canceled, and replaced with an L Visa, in which case best case scenario being having to travel to HK for a new "Z", or worse yet, having to return home (this case UK) with necessary paperwork for Zed?
I have a friend right now in such a position. Has a new employer, (went through the appropriate process of submitting notice to his current) but they can't submit his paperwork without the release letter. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't his current employer breaking the law by not giving him the letter, and if so, who would one contact in order to make a complaint?
Bottom line here is it's just his employer being a total dick because this individual decided (after a bunch of BS came down, story for another day) to seek employment elsewhere.
Any thoughts, or help would be appreciated.
As to the school "Maple International Language Institute" located here in Xi'an, for a number of different reasons, I'd take a pass on going to work there any time in the near future.
Zhuhao,
Shawn |
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cj750nomad
Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 252
Location: Beijing and
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| Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| but isn't his current employer breaking the law by not giving him the letter, and if so, who would one contact in order to make a complaint? |
Breaking a SAFEA regulation is not breaking a law although the requirement may be mediated in some way by them...
A labor department compliant may also end up in a mediation... |
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North China Laowei
Joined: 08 Apr 2008
Posts: 419
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| Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:08 pm Post subject: Catch-22 |
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| DistantRelative wrote: |
Just curious. So what does one do if the school refuses to give the release letter, unless the FT submits to traveling to the PSB along with the employer, and having his RP canceled, and replaced with an L Visa, in which case best case scenario being having to travel to HK for a new "Z", or worse yet, having to return home (this case UK) with necessary paperwork for Zed?
I have a friend right now in such a position. Has a new employer, (went through the appropriate process of submitting notice to his current) but they can't submit his paperwork without the release letter. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't his current employer breaking the law by not giving him the letter, and if so, who would one contact in order to make a complaint?
Bottom line here is it's just his employer being a total dick because this individual decided (after a bunch of BS came down, story for another day) to seek employment elsewhere.
Any thoughts, or help would be appreciated.
As to the school "Maple International Language Institute" located here in Xi'an, for a number of different reasons, I'd take a pass on going to work there any time in the near future.
Zhuhao,
Shawn |
Let's look at the administrative technicalities and legalities of this, Shawn.
A Letter of Release and a Letter of Recommendation are required when leaving one employer with a valid residence permit that issued from a Z-visa; that is the fine point of labor law regulations for foreign teachers in China.
The school is very savvy in their malevolence. They will force your friend to go to the PSB to have his residence permit cancelled; at that point the residence permit and Z visa issue becomes moot; then they propose replacing that with an L visa, at which time the question of the Letter of Release and Letter of Recommendation becomes moot. Oh, are they cunning. A Letter of Release is not required under the law when applying for a new Z visa and a new residence permit in the case of an L visa applicant. The application is considered a "new" application and your friend will have to return to the beginning of the process in that case.
I can only tell about the legalities of this and the force of law. Your friend needs to hold his ground. Yes, sure, in his shoes I would go to the PSB. I would not submit to having the residence permit cancelled there. I would involve the PSB in the process and even, even if the first-level official sides with the school, then he should demand to see a higher-up and a higher-up and a higher-up. And he should contact the Foreign Experts' Bureau in Xian, etc., etc. He need to know his rights and he has one -- he is entitled to a Letter of Release if they are releasing him and if they have agreed to release him and if he has paid the fine, or met the conditions of the release.
It is a vicious circle for him otherwise because if the residence permit tied to the Z visa is cancelled, and replaced with an L visa, his next application is considered a new and unfettered application not tied to the previous employer at all. And they know this.
Hold firm, know your rights, make noise, perhaps lots of it and involve whomever legally that he has to involve. The PSB in these cases are far, far less malevolent than he may think. |
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DistantRelative
Joined: 19 Oct 2004
Posts: 367
Location: Shaanxi/Xian
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:17 am Post subject: |
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So basically the long and short of it is that were all at the mercy of our employer, and subject to their whims, and/or malevolence.
In the end what the school is doing is forcing my friend to either work for them, or leave the country.
In discussing this with my friend it appears his solution to the problem is going to be to leave. He's going to return home during the holiday break for a visit with family, and with new paperwork in hand from new employer, obtain the new "Z".
After listening to all said here it sounds like the best thing for him to do will be to have his RP canceled and converted prior to leaving in order that he has no ties to previous employer, and he's treated as one making a "fresh" start, i.e. new application.
Appreciate the advice, and will pass it along.
Zhuhao,
Shawn |
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cj750nomad
Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 252
Location: Beijing and
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 7:34 am Post subject: |
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| So basically the long and short of it is that were all at the mercy of our employer, and subject to their whims, and/or malevolence. |
So is the reality of being a guest worker in a foreign country.... |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 10:36 am Post subject: |
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DR
| Quote: |
| Just curious. So what does one do if the school refuses to give the release letter, unless the FT submits to traveling to the PSB along with the employer, and having his RP canceled, and replaced with an L Visa, in which case best case scenario being having to travel to HK for a new "Z", or worse yet, having to return home (this case UK) with necessary paperwork for Zed |
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| So basically the long and short of it is that were all at the mercy of our employer, and subject to their whims, and/or malevolence |
I don't concur. But I think the question is wothwhile. Someone mentioned about scare tactics. I have been in China for a while now, and have come across schools/individuals using scare tactics, both personally and from direct knowledge of others in Henan.
Never has the PSB or Henan FAO/waishiban/SAFEA office ever been other then helpful to anyone that came into the country legally. I have seen them bend over backwards to help laowai.
If the school refuses to give a letter of release, you would NEVER go to the PSB. Never ever surrender your passport that has a good RP unless it is to get a new RP with a new school. Go to the provincial waishiban office, often the SAFEA office. They are the only,ONLY ONES who care about the letter of release. And only do this if your new school has a problem because you have no letter of release. It is not always asked for. If you go to the SAFEA office, which issues the work permits (for which you might, often, technically need the letter of release), and explain the situation ... well, I have never heard a single report of such a laowai having a problem. NEVER, Just a bunch of scaremongering, the type that bad schools use to terrorize teachers who haven't learned protect themselves. I learned this my second year when my school gave me a FAKE residence permit (back in the days that RP's were a separate green card.)
Never (accept perhaps a criminal type case) has there been a report of a laowai haing trouble leaving the country because although he had a current RP, he had left the school a long time ago. This being said, For those who want to continue working in China under good circumstances, it seems only common sense to get a new school as quickly as possible, and not push your luck.
The PSB, SAFEA are not ogres, and are very helpful, as long as you present them with a situation they can help with. If you came on an L visa long expired, have criminal charges, or a passport with a long expired RP, well of course don't expect much.
So some unlikely posters all agree, stop the stupid fear-mongering, there is no evidence for it.
But never ever let the school hold onto your passport,
then you are at their mercy
PS I said on another thread, head a Filipino couple, they gave in to the school, and allowed the school to keep their passport. The mother was pregant or just had a child. The school cancelled her contract, The husband was on a spouse visa. The school went to the PSB and had the RP cancelled. So they were in the country without an RP (thus here illegally) I do not ask you to try this, but both the PSB and waishiban did every thing to help them, including finding them a nice rent free apartment for over a month, and letting them stay for another month or two to get things sorted out. They eventually went back to the Phillipines, no fines. They were encouraged to plan a little better in the future. I doubt they would get such assistance a 2nd time |
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