Job Discussion Forums

[rusmeister]

[stillnosheep]

Changing the definition of what constitutes an acceptqble version of English is not the same as eliminating the definition. It may just be that the more useful definition is not the sharpest. In Wittgenstinian terms light and darkness don't cease to exist just beacsue we cannot always draw a sharp line seperating the two. Similarly with correct and incorrect or acceptable and unacceptable English.

I take your point about one major difference between 'traditional' (='white") Englishes and other variants but fear that your view lacks historical perspective. Much of the difference between 'standard'variants of English was caused by differnt L1 influences, Creole and French in parts of the USA, Dutch/Afrikaans in South Africa etc. Why should a varient influenced by Hindi be less 'correct' than one influenced by Dutch, except insofar that Dutch is closer to British English than is Hindi. Even within one country muc regional variation can be traced back to differing patterns of L1 use, Gaelic and Scots in Scotland, Welsh in Wales, Norse in the North east, etc.

Just as 'BBC English' or RP speakers had to accept regional British accents and 'British English' speakers are having to accept Australian English as an equal but different variant rather than a bastardisation of the language of Joyce and Shakespeare (much as it sticks in the craw) so will Australians one day have to accept Singapore English speakers.

Vive la difference!

[rusmeister]

[stillnosheep]

Spelling: Seperate for separate is a perennial of mine, as is varient for variant. Apart from that I could only find typos.

Grammar mistakes: Form follows function, not vice-versa. I see no problem, even upon re-reading.

Desirability: Surely it is desirable to acknowledge the effects of the internationalisation of English, rather than attempt to shore up outmoded culturally biased stereotypes according traditional variants privileged status. Perhaps psychological differences are at play here. While you may long for standardisation, I glory in diversity and believe that a reliance on outdated precepts of 'normal' English dis-encourages non native speakers from communicating in English. Far from leading to a world of private language speakers, each lost in their own private English, the result of this process will be more communication, not less.

At some stage we have to acknowledge that English has outgrown its parents, and is making its way in the world without us. Even well meaning parents must learn to let go.

Vive la change!

[kingkristopher]

Hmmm, sorry but I gotta say that I don't think that pronunciation and accent reduction are the same thing. In ESL we teach pronunciation, but very few of us are truly qualified to teach accent reduction, that is the purview of linguistics. I have some experience with teaching pronunciation, but accent reduction is a whole 'nuther ball game. As other posters have pointed out, I think the best best is to focus on differences in L1 and L2 pronunciation as well as the all-important syllable and word stress.

[rusmeister]

[stillnosheep]

I quite liked 'Englishes'. I think that was my point. That they are becoming a multiplicity, linked by family resemblance but each possessing unique features.

You are correct that I was referring to the process whereby English is becoming increasingly a language of international communication used by non-native speakers, mainly in a business context. As part of this process we can indeed expect to see a simplification of the rules of English, perhaps including such matters as the dropping of the third person singular 's' ending, but I'm not sure thatthis is a dumbing down as much as the next stage in a long process of simplification (how often do we use the second person familiar these days?).

The diversity remains, in the idiosyncracies of Indian, Singaporean, or indeed Shakespearian English, but the interaction of 'new' English speakers impacts on the language, whether traditional English speakers like it or not.

Btw. I wasn't referring to traditional forms of English as parents but to English L1 speakers and specifically to 'us' as teachers of English. We may have wished to raise a world delighting in Shakespeare but instead our students are choosing to work marketing the output of Guangdong lighting manufactures to Indian English buyers working for Saudi importers.

The greater the international reach of the language, the greater the influence of non L1 speakers upon it.

I think my original point was to point out incongrousness to many British English speakers of an Australian English speaker arguing that Indian English speakers mangle the language. Many British English speakers have been saying the same about Australian English speakers for years, and within Britain the pyramid continues as those in possession of more 'cultured' accents look down upon the rest. An alternative to this hierarchical, imperialistic worldview of English is to rejoice in its diversity and embrace its renewal and reinvention. That isn't to deny the glory of Shakespeare, just to recognise that the game of words didn't end when we learnt the rules.

Let the games continue!

[rusmeister]

[Stephen Jones]

The difficulty with suggesting that Indian English is a standard is that it is a moveable feast. The number of native speakers in India is under 200,000 according to the last census, and although there are a large number of 'bilingual' English speakers that word covers a variety of sins.

There is obviously a spectrum from those whose command of English is much, much better than that of anybody on this forum, and in general the better the command of English the closer the variety written and spoken resembles formal British English in grammar, though there are still Inidan idioms that are common at all levels and registers.

When I need to decide if something is correct 'Indian Englsih' I normally Google the top class Indian papers such as the "Times of India' or 'Outlook India'. The majority of variants that people claim are genuine Indian English because they heard them off the guy who cleans their offices or houses, don't appear.

[stillnosheep]

[MO39]

[rusmeister]

[stillnosheep]

Extreme cockney was developed as a 'thieves argot' precisely so that societal outsiders (insiders to the cant or argot) could converse without being understood by others around them.

My Fair Lady is based on Shaw's Pygmalion, itself based on the myth of Pygmalion from Ovid's Metamorpheses in which Pygmalion is disgusted with real-life women and chooses celibacy and the pursuit of an ideal woman, whom he carves out of ivory.

The pursuit of an idealised, standardised language at the cost of real-life languages is equally futile, and sterile. Language lives, and it lives as it is spoken, not as we wish it to be.

The dialects are the language.

[MO39]

[stillnosheep]

I teach the English I know, knowing that is neither the one true English, nor the same language as the English I first learnt.