Job Discussion Forums

[ESL Hobo]

Rusmeister,

Humans in general just love beating the unholy crap out of one another.
Abrahamic religions especially love war and teaching infidels a lesson!

If you cant take the HEAT get out of the religion or Onward XN soldier!!! or become a buddhist they dont take a lot of heat for beating people based on feelings of moral superiority.

[johnslat]

Dear ESL Hobo,

Well, it's all relative, I suppose:

"Is Buddhism pacifist? One would think so, to hear the Declarations of the Dalai Lama and those who claim there has never been "Buddhist war." So has Zen Buddhism's "drift" to militarism been only an aberration, after the timeless message of Gautama, the warrior-prince who, once he became the Buddha, preached nonviolence? We are not simply faced here with a gap between theory and practice. Even though Buddhism has no concept of a "holy war," it doesn't mean its doctrine does not at times legitimize the recourse to violence and the just war.

In whatever countries Buddhism has became official ideology�whether Theravada Buddhism in Southeast Asia or Tantric Buddhism in Tibet or East Asia�war has often been zealously waged. At present, the Buddhists of Sri Lanka, for example, have openly taken up the struggle against the Tamil freedom fighters. What is true of Japanese Zen holds equally for other forms of Buddhism. Long before its lyrical metaphysical flights exerted their charm, Buddhism took hold first and foremost as a tool for protecting States."

"Thus, there have been, and will again be, "Buddhist wars," and Buddhism's superiority in this regard is entirely relative. Yet, on the whole, it remains more tolerant than the other great religions and ideologies�which is no small matter, at a moment when the world seems threatened once more by fundamentalisms. In every age, the Buddhist clergy's will to power has been balanced by the ideal of compassion. But Buddhist doctrine, in order not to remain a dead letter, must take account of the violence inherent in the human heart, in society, and in Buddhism itself."

http://www.sangam.org/articles/view/?id=118


Even Buddhists are, after all, human and their hearts can be hearts of darkness.

Regards,
John

[rusmeister]

[miski]

One who was pinned against the wall while her year 8 girls wrote on her skirt, locked in her room when the inspectors came to visit and was last seen walking down the street from school pulling a suitcase.
Last known whereabouts, teaching in that Kuwaiti bastion of education......KNES

We called her Doris, but I don't expect that was her real name.

www.teachthemasses.wordpress.com

[johnslat]

Dear rusmeister,

"This can also be fairly said of traditional Christianity."

It can, I think, be fairly said of all humanity, religious, atheistic and agnostic.

Regards,
John

[ESL Hobo]

Dear Johnslat,

Quote from John

"Is Buddhism pacifist? One would think so, to hear the Declarations of the Dalai Lama and those who claim there has never been "Buddhist war." So has Zen Buddhism's "drift" to militarism been only an aberration, after the timeless message of Gautama, the warrior-prince who, once he became the Buddha, preached nonviolence? We are not simply faced here with a gap between theory and practice. Even though Buddhism has no concept of a "holy war," it doesn't mean its doctrine does not at times legitimize the recourse to violence and the just war.

Drift towards "militarism" seems a bit extreme.
Can you show me some Buddhist Doctrine that ..."at times legitimize the recourse to violence and the just war."

Quote:
"In whatever countries Buddhism has became official ideology�whether Theravada Buddhism in Southeast Asia or Tantric Buddhism in Tibet or East Asia�war has often been zealously waged."

While this is true, my guess is those wars were not started up by Buddhist.
Many asian countries have several "official ideologies" and Buddhist are especially tolerant of others practicing their own religions.

Quote:
"Buddhists of Sri Lanka, for example, have openly taken up the struggle against the Tamil freedom fighters. What is true of Japanese Zen holds equally for other forms of Buddhism. Long before its lyrical metaphysical flights exerted their charm, Buddhism took hold first and foremost as a tool for protecting States."

Yes, if Buddhist are being slaughtered for long enough they react, but it is not a part of their doctrine or a tool for protecting the state.

Quote:
"Buddhist Wars"
Hah,
you should say
Wars against Buddhist.

Quote:
"But Buddhist doctrine, in order not to remain a dead letter, must take account of the violence inherent in the human heart, in society, and in Buddhism itself."

Still cant agree that there is anything in Buddhist doctrine that is inherently violence based or in Buddhism itself.
Although in society and the human heart, yes.

Buddhist are being slaughtered in southern Thailand by Islamic extremist who want to take control of it. Sometimes the Buddhist in their weak human frailty fight back, but it is not a part of buddhist doctrine, they are not a tool for the protection of the state, and they were not the original agressors.

The main religions being used as a tool of the state for violence are Christianity and Islam. My last look at statistics were Xns make up about 32% of the world's population and that Islam is around 22%.
Talk about MILITARISTIC, just take a look at which countries have the most military hardware and soldiers.

Sadly, My prediction is that a few hundred years from now there will only be small pockets of Buddhism remaining unless xns and muslims wipe each other from the face of the earth.

So John, I must say I disagree with your assessment about it all being relative.

sincerely,

the ESL Hobo

[johnslat]

Dear ESL Hobo,

Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men (and women?)

The Buddha does.

Regards,
John

[ESL Hobo]

Sorry John,

Wrong again,
That would be the Shadow.

[johnslat]

Dear ESL Hobo,

In the Shadow of the Buddha

Always at battle
Always in flux
You move
With the unceasingness of the wind
Before you lies your dreams
Behind you your memories
Squeezed through the vicissitudes of time
Stop not; fear not
The kingdom is approaching
It will come out of the horizon
And sink into
Abysmal depths and disappear
Look into heaven and watch
The sky opening up
And behind it endless space
Swallowing degenerate generations
Condemning them to eternal death
And then the sparkling stars
Will light up your way
And guide you
To an ancient dawn
There you will see
Sitting cross legged
The sun trapped within his being
Smiling that smile
Of everlasting bliss
The Buddha

A religion/philosophy that promotes compassion/peace/love so strongly knows full well what a formidable enemy it faces: the evil that lurks in the human heart.
I've known many professed Buddhists, a lot of them during my two-year stint in Indonesia. I found them to be good and bad, compassionate and nasty, etc. I suspect that the percentage of professed Buddhists who truly follow the teaching of the Buddha is about the same as the percentage of professed Christians who truly follow the teaching of Jesus.

Regards,
John

[ESL Hobo]

Hi John,

Excellent poem by Leonard Daranjo.
Yes, I beleive most humans whatever belief system they profess are mostly nominally so.

Perhaps, Buddhist will someday rival Abrahamic religions in their militancy! Let's hope not.

I have lived in many countries, some mostly filled with Christians, some Mostly filled with Muslims, some Mostly filled with Buddhists.

Personally, I dont label myself in any catagory of religion, and am I not an atheist nor a humanist. But my country of perefernce for living in is by far a Buddhist country.

[ESL Hobo]

Hi John,

By the way. Next time you quote a poem, it would be a kindness to quote the Poet's name as well.

Regards

[johnslat]

Dear ESL Hobo,

Can't argue with preferences. Myself, I prefer the States, but I have to admit I truly enjoyed my 22 years in Muslim/Buddhist countries.

And yes, you're right; I should have cited the poet.

Regards,
John

[ESL Hobo]

Hi John,

How's the weather in Santa Fe?
I bet it's gorgeous this time of year.

I am glad you enjoyed your time abroad and that you also enjoy being back in the states. I have been abroad for 15 years, once every 4 years or so I need to go back to recharge my batteries, but after a few months I always long to go someplace else. Perhaps that will change.

Have a nice day,

I have to go and do some privates now.

[Gav22]

As a practicing Buddhist who has not only read extensively on the subject and met with many teachers/leaders and asked myself questions about Buddhism until my head almost exploded, as well as written and published a book on the 8 Fold Path itself, let me try and lay some rest on this subject. I am not trying to appear as a "mega-Buddhist" or anything like it, although my ego would love that, but rather just trying to outline that I might be able to shed some light on the subject for anyone who cares to listen.

There are two main schools of Buddhism - Therevada and Mahayana. In Therevada Buddhism (practiced mostly in South East Asia) there is a STRICT adherance to the value of non-violence (in theory, but then again, Vietnam was and is a Buddhist country, and one of the most famous wars ever had been fought there) to the point where it's followers will die rather than kill another living creature and have been known to remain indoors for sveeral months during rainy season so as not to step on bugs which come to the surface during this season. In Mahayana however, it is justified to kill and use violence if it is in the name of protecting others (ie - killing an armed man about to enter a primary school).

Let me tell you that the Buddhist religion is as corrupt, full of power struggles and absolutely filthy to the core as any other religion on this planet. Buddhists have waged war in the past, and will do so again in the future - however, much the same as Christianity and Islam, WAR IS NOT a central part of their teachings, but rather a by-product of the imperfect beings who actually try to practice these teachings. Darkness is indeed a part of the human heart, and as Taoist's say - without darkness, there would be no light.

However, I must say that practicing Buddhism has made a difference to my own life, making me a lot more peaceful and considerate in my approach to others, not to mention reasonable and diplomatic.

But that's not really what this topic is about, is it?[/b]

[mondrian]

I'm afraid that most of these recent posts here are off topic
waste of time for some of us to read and then reflect on the finer points of B**ism
Loonysm it isn't; or is it?!