Job Discussion Forums

chinglishman · Joined: 02 Dec 2008 Posts: 22

Is BA qualification a must or an obstacle when you want to teach in China? NO!

In the big cities, some schools do have a high expectation but still an increasing number of primary and middle schools are getting the qualification to hire FTs year by year and they're thirsty for FTs.

Then in the second or third tier cities, fewer schools insist on BA qualification as fewer foreigners want to go there. Many schools do claim that, but once they can't find one they'll retreat.

I'm in a third tier city in center China. I heard some middle school students complained that their FT, a high school graduate, kept referring to Dictionaries in classes. Surely a serious teacher can easily overmatches this guy. there're also 2 unis with several FTs without degrees or even tefl/tesol. They're doing quite well.

Surely the BAers will have a good bargain when it comes to the salaries.

Hansen · Joined: 13 Oct 2008 Posts: 737 Location: central China

These kind of posts need to be clarified.

It may be that some schools will hire an FT who does not meet the criteria for a legal FEC. They can provide fraudulent documents, lies, bribes, and so forth to make things work. They may have the necessary guanxi.

I'm working here legally, with authentic documents, except perhaps, for some small lies the FAO told without my prior knowledge, so this issue isn' t a personal concern of mine right now.

A fireman can earn a good living in the States without a bachelor's degree. Firemen are often, perhaps always, paramedics. There is no question that they have a specialized training that is valuable to the community; however, they are certainly not trained to teach language.

I spent about 6 years in college. I wasn't trained to teach language. Most people, outside of that field, are not.

As schools gain more experience, they are starting to desire real teachers. Some schools may start getting sued by students who are promised advanced language learning opportunities from foreigners. Once they discover that beloved FT is a two year industrial arts major suffering from priapism, they, perhaps rightfully, are not thrilled. Nor are their parents.

I'm not looking to spoil anyone in particular's party; however, not having the right info can be a spoiler too. How would you like to get here, only to be told after you arrive that the FAO will not issue the FEC, thereby making you ineligible for a RP.

I, for one, am not interested in passing off fraudulent documents attesting to whatever is needed.

The poster sought information. Let him read the different points of view and make his won decision. If he has a Z visa in hand before he leaves, that's a good start. I'm not sure if the FAO can still refuse to issue an FEC after he arrives. In most cases, getting the bachelor's makes sense. In the case of a retiree, it probably doesn't.

Even people with proper credentials get scammed.

roadwalker · Joined: 24 Aug 2005 Posts: 1750 Location: Ch

Just want to clarify that the FAO cannot issue an FEC. Hopefully the FAO knows the qualifications required by the Foreign Experts Bureau or whatever it's called, so that the teacher isn't misled.

As for a teacher consulting a dictionary in class, I think that teacher is taking the job seriously. I wouldn't judge a teacher strictly on having a small vocabulary or for being unsure of his/her vocabulary. I certainly wouldn't judge a teacher on how much the students complain. That said, finishing that Bachelor's degree will give you more options and will leave you less vulnerable to the types of schools that take advantage of the uncredentialed.

Hansen · Joined: 13 Oct 2008 Posts: 737 Location: central China

FAO= Foreign Affairs Office=Foreign Experts Bureau
FAO=Foreign Affairs Officer

Context: Useful in understanding the meaning of, or clarifying, terms.

matt045 · Joined: 08 Dec 2008 Posts: 8

Since I am the OP, I should respond. First, I do appreciate the information and advice from those who have responded. Yes, I do have a 2 year Industrial Arts degree. That is my finished degree. I was a pre-veterinary student at UC at Davis prior to my Fire Dept. career. I do have over 3 years course study prior to my Fire Science degree. Does not having the BS, or BA make me less educated- no. Does it make me less marketable as an FT- yes. I am planning on taking the CELTA course, which is represented as a qualification to teach english to adults. I do my best in any endeavor that I undertake, and this is no exception. I did not like the insinuation that I am going to China for the wrong reasons, ie: industrial arts FT with priapism.... I hope that was not directed at me. I am going to China to immerse myself in the culture, to see the country, and to meet the people. I want to be productive at the same time, and yes, I will be a good english teacher. I do not need the highest paying job-I just don't want to be taken advantage of, and have my first teaching experience be a negative one, either. Best regards, Matt

Hansen · Joined: 13 Oct 2008 Posts: 737 Location: central China

Matt, Getting a CELTA before coming to China is a waste of money. It will probably set you back 5K. Not worth it at all. The kind of things CELTA teaches are more or less useless in a Chinese classroom of 50 or 60 students.

The CELTA info that you can actually use here could be covered in an afternoon, not a month of high pressure and stress. Without a bachelor's degree, some kind of TEFL, TESOL is essential. CELTA is unknown here, at least in these parts.

What you need is a course that will give you basic information about determining appropriate material for the learner's level of study.

Also, determining the student's grasp of the material by evoking appropriate response rather than asking "Got it?"

Having the students produce the new language as a group before individually is also useful. It gives them a chance to practice without the stress of being in the spotlight.

A lot of useful stuff for China is not covered in CELTA.

matt045 · Joined: 08 Dec 2008 Posts: 8

Hi Hansen,
OK, well I see Tesol courses offered that are 60 hours of classroom- is that what I should start with? They cost about $1300. I can take the CELTA with 120 hours for $2300. I'm confused, because some say get the CELTA, but now you think it is better to get the regular TESOL. Please explain to me what I should do, as you are there in China, and know the local conditions. Is the 60 hour course enough to be able to get a job and be prepared enought to get my feet wet in teaching a class. I do have instructors training from the fire service, so teaching is not totally foreign, but it will be a whole new rodeo in a foreign land. Please advise regarding Tesol vs. Celta. Thanks, Matt

Sonnibarger · Joined: 15 May 2007 Posts: 320 Location: Wuhan

in regards to tesol.. i think the cheapest/fastest is the best way to go.. schools just want to see the piece of paper... in my opinion it did little to prepare me for the realities of teaching English in China. I wish i took the cheap online course and saved myself the $1000.

Hansen · Joined: 13 Oct 2008 Posts: 737 Location: central China

Matt, I'll try to be helpful.

Normally, I would suggest doing CELTA in Thailand for less than $2500 including room and board. Things are dicey there now, so I can't say that.

If you can commute to SF and do the CELTA there, or locally, that is much cheaper than hotel and food in SF for a month. I'm going to back up a bit here. You may find that there are other places where CELTA is useful, even though not so much in China.

I'd like some other posters to jump in here and say what they think about CELTA versus other TESOL/ TEFL certifications. You may want to check on the Thailand, Viet Nam, and other Asian country boards as well. You may find that China is not to your liking.

Being able to go to another place gives you more options, obviously. If you are determined to do China, seek some other opinions on the relative merits of different certs. CELTA is not useful here. It is virtually unheard of in many areas of the country; however, some kind of certificate is essential without a bachelor's degree.

Do you mind disclosing your age?

Mister Al · Joined: 28 Jun 2004 Posts: 840 Location: In there

I think in general CELTA is a much better qualification to have in particular if you are moving to other parts of the world later on. There are lots of TESOL/TEFL qualifications out there and some of those are a bit Mickey Mouse but there is only one CELTA, so no dispute about whether it's a real qualification or not. The actual training might not be of great use regarding the realities of teaching in China, except maybe the language mills where class sizes are usually under 20. If you plan to teach English for a few years then go for a CELTA. It will help keep the doors open for you.

matt045 · Joined: 08 Dec 2008 Posts: 8

Thanks again for your advice, all. Hansen, I am 50 years old. Here is the deal- There is a Cambridge CELTA course offered in San Diego in January for $2300- I have family there, so my housing will be free. I live in a small town in Arkansas right now, so I would have to travel to take any Tesol course and my housing costs would be considerable. I would like to receive some actual teaching training before having to do it "for real". Why is the CELTA not really applicable to China? What is the difference between the Tesol and Celta? To sonnibarger- what do you recommend that would be a good cert for China. I am also interested in South America, also.
I checked on Tesol classes in San Diego- the websites for the schools were very flaky and one actually locks up my computer- they didn't give me a good feeling.... The cost for the 60 hour course was $1395. The Celta cost is $2300 and is a 120 hour course. The reason time is of the essence for me, is that I need to tell the Celta school if I will attend the January class or not, on Monday. If I take this class, I will at least have a certification and be able to accept a position in China. Is there anything that I can do that will prepare me for teaching in China, or is more of "trial by fire"? I would appreciate any advice, and please articulate why. Thank you for your time to answer my questions- this is a great forum. Best, Matt

Hansen · Joined: 13 Oct 2008 Posts: 737 Location: central China

If money is not an issue, go for the CELTA. You can use it other places.

In China, it is not recognized. Most people have never heard of it. CELTA classes are usually no more than 12 or so students. Very much depends on the individual participation of each student. Classes in China are usually 50 or more. Many students are indifferent to English acquisition. Some are hostile. That makes it difficult to imprint the lesson on each student. Participation in the learning task is a major part of the CELTA approach.

Matt, if you are only 50 and have a lot of college done, I would seriously consider throwng a bachelor's degree together. Without it, in China, your options are going to be severely limited, at least in these parts.

Sugar Magnolia · Joined: 14 Oct 2008 Posts: 233

I recommend i-to-i international.com

It is all you need for a job in China and offers a few good ideas.

Sugar

roadwalker · Joined: 24 Aug 2005 Posts: 1750 Location: Ch

Celta is the biggest brand name and is known throughout the world, so it COULD come in handy should you decide to go other places. I agree a typical Chinese school just wants some type of Celta/Tefl/Tesol certificate so they can check that box as complete.

As for the course, I have heard some complain of it's uselessness, and Hansen is correct that most likely you won't be able to teach anywhere near what it trains you for. On the other hand, some like it for the quick and dirty refresher on English grammar; survey of the methods used in teaching English as a foreign language, and also the practical teaching experience with an experienced EFL teacher and fellow teacher trainees to give some feedback. Your experience training in firefighting, first aid and what not should serve you well, but you may find English as outside your comfort zone.

I took an off-brand TEFL course, though it appears it was modeled after the Celta course. None of the teaching methodology we actually practiced would work here, but I got some of the butterflies out and got a sometimes too blunt assessment of my shortcomings. I don't regret it at all and may not have gotten some jobs without it. I say take the Celta. I agree with Hansen that you ought to consider the bachelor's. It is another tick mark that many schools must have.

number1english · Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 1:38 am Post subject: BA does not mean better teacher

You make a good point Hansen, but when it comes to teaching English in China, I don't believe this is the case. A bachelor's degree has nothing whatsoever to do with whether one is qualified to teach a language (unless, of course, one has a bachelor's degree in Linguistic Science). There are people here with advanced degrees who simply lack the social personality for teaching, or are here on other agendas, and just use the school for their accomodations and one-year visa. In fact, it's my opinion that teachers without degrees actually do better in the classroom than BA holders, simply because they tend to be less greedy when it comes to salary and benefits, they tend to be more creative with their teaching materials, and they know how limited their opportunities are back in America.