Job Discussion Forums

[fluffyhamster]

[johnslat]

Generalizing about observers makes about as much sense as generalizing about those observed.
I've been in both positions. As the one observed, I've had good observers, ones who gave me constructive feedback and helped me be a better teacher.
I've also had lousy observers, ones who just went through the motions and then offered either no feedback or none that was at all helpful.

As an observer, I was, of course, always fantastic.

Regards,
John

[fluffyhamster]

LOL You are always fantastic, John!

Justin, I was making something of a strawman there (which you certainly ain't!), but the point remains that unless a day-to-day observer's opinions are generally held to be of no more than equal value to the teacher's (meaning, the teacher's decisions are ultimately upheld and respected, unless of course they were in this particular instance completely unsound in principle and disatrous in execution, which probably indicates deeper underlying problems), then they may be perceived as an unwelcome intrusion. (I am talking about teachers who are being observed for no good reason, despite doing a presumably satisfactory job with no serious complaints generally). I am not sure that I agree with the way DIPTESOL went about expressing himself, but the fact that he dared to disagree with the observer and the methods employed shouldn't in itself be sufficient reason to summarily dismiss him (which IIRC is what he on another - China forum? - thread said has happened).

[Justin Trullinger]

John, obviously, would be welcome to observe any of us.

QUivering undead cats just conjure up way too unpleasant images.

But seriously- I think the art of observing and giving feedback is underemphasized in teacher training. Done right, it can be a good thing. I especially liked this:

[fluffyhamster]

Nice stuff, Justin. reminds me a bit of Bruce Lee's 'Absorb what is useful (to you personally)', and then just 'Walk on'. (Edit: And thinking more on the Palmer quote, made me remember something I'd written (follow links and read the last paragraph of my post on thread you end up at: http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?p=672521#672521 )). Observer and observed should engage in however much mutual take (and only maybe "give" (noun)) as they feel inclined to (i.e. one won't need to offer to give directly if one is actually already in the process of giving at least indirectly). But then, to get to that stage, it would help if every teacher could and indeed had just upped their game some and became pretty much their own fix-it guru, able to "bring" and "give" as much as they might expect to take/absorb. (Did that make any sense? Ah, no worries, let's just pass the peace pipe, man!).

[Sashadroogie]

I think it is important to distinguish between types of observation. Peer observations, developmental observations, 'quality-control' observations etc. All have a different rationale, and have a differing approach. The following quote is really only true for peer observations:

'the point remains that unless a day-to-day observer's opinions are generally held to be of no more than equal value to the teacher's (meaning, the teacher's decisions are ultimately upheld and respected, unless of course they were in this particular instance completely unsound in principle and disastrous in execution, which probably indicates deeper underlying problems), then they may be perceived as an unwelcome intrusion'

In other situations, whether on a CELTA course, or by a proper DoS in a (non-cowboy) school, observation feedback is not usually a meeting between equals. Most teachers in ESOL are relatively new to the field, and whether they find observations intrusive or not is not really relevant - they need them to develop. They need to be told what they did well and what they need to improve. Most new and not so new teachers do in fact welcome observations. At any rate that has been my experience.

The question 'why did you do that this way...?' is asked as a way to allow the observee to justify their lesson if this is unclear from the plan (as is typically the case with inexperienced teachers). It is a good way to see do they really know what they were doing and why. 'Why' is the crucial element that is lacking in newbies and also more experienced. However, very often it happens that during oral the observee does indeed supply relevant information that can justify their actions in the classroom - e.g. seating patterns arranged so as to avoid certain students clashing. Asking 'why did you ...?' helps the observer to minimize the number of assumptions he makes.

Also, when we talk about 'experienced' teachers, what do we mean by that? Do we mean the teacher who has been in the field for 5 years but has merely repeated the same year 5 times, thus not very skilled? Or do we mean someone who has learned something new each year and built up his skill levels consistently. If it is the latter, I guarantee proper observations were at the heart of his development. (Teaching skills, btw, are not just a collection of activities and games that you can copy from other teachers.) Sadly, I have had to observe many teachers who thought they were superb, based on solely on the length of time they had worked, but yet failed to grasp even the most basic concepts of teaching, e.g. having lesson aims, error correction, giving feedback. They were usually the ones who came up with meaningless and negative responses like 'I did it this way because I wanted to.'

A final note, the whole point of teacher development and observations seems to have been missed in this discussion. The objective is to make teachers more capable of helping their students to learn. The most useful observation feedback and training I got helped me to see the lesson from the students' point of view. If the learners learn, then the lesson was a success, and the observer and feedback will reflect this.

[cmann]

I must have by now done 1000's of teacher observations and the two hardest things are: A) thinking of something new to say, & B) not falling asleep. so I think it is up to the teacher to give me something new to say and produce a lesson that keeps me awake.

[DIPTESOL]

In my own defence, when I said I emailed management I meant I replied to the email the manager who observed me sent. It wasn't the reason I got sacked no, however the manager was still inept and the observation was worthless..
I am a competent teacher and glad to be out of that cowboy joint, am going to go back to being DOS and yes.. doing observations!!

[Sashadroogie]

Well, good for you DIPTESOL! Put that DELTA to good use.

Best of luck to you

[SueH]

[fluffyhamster]

(Sahsadroogie,) Maybe the main distinction to make (still) is between truly welcome observations, and ultimately unwelcome ones (unless they are apparently truly needed and thus "welcome" (to be "welcomed")); as for issues of professional development, I for one have already mentioned that I haven't been observed much, and intimated that I would probably not much welcome having to explicitly justify my every pedagogical decision in the form of neat detailed plans (though I could of course write up very detailed plans, or rather, my own honest accounts* of my own lessons, and indeed have done sometimes for the perusal and possible interest of Dave's readers - my observers! (Thanks BTW to anyone who's ever responded, even with harsh criticism or undisguised contempt (the last doesn't help confirm that I'm becoming a better teacher, but it doubtless helped the writers feel better about themselves, so at least somebody benefitted, which is obviously great! ~ If your irony sensor has packed up, give it a bash now!)). Basically, I prefer to be left to my own devices (much like quite a few other teachers, I suspect), and whaddya know, I seem to have done a reasonable job of preparing lessons and slowly developing off my own bat.

*This distinction is I feel important. What was it Englishdroid opined about plans - that they are or should be (presumably the writer meant in the observer's eyes) 'sacred documents unsullied by vulgar practice'. Tie me up in a straightjacket then complain if I thrash a bit to get free, why don't you! Then, assuming a plan submitted well in advance looked good on paper, why wouldn't it be reasonable in execution (and indulge me here, why would the observer feel compelled to observe that particular plan-lesson)? The answer of course is that most lesson plans and the methodology behind them are actually a bit pants (due to the inadequacies of especially initial training, upon which everything else that follows seems to be predicated), and the least the observer can do is ensure that the observee isn't rolling in drunk and has "rapport" or whatever with the students (despite then patronizing them in turn); aims, error correction and feedback are blunted if the approach and language offered is skewy - and judging from some transcripts, I believe a lot is skewy and ineffective in "model" language classrooms (if only seating clashing students apart were the biggest of our applied linguistic concerns!).

[fluffyhamster]

[Sashadroogie]

Funny. Lots of criticism is levelled at the lack of professionalism in the EFL industry, yet when it comes to observations so many teachers shy right away from them. Understandable, if previous experience has been that of the OP. But unpopular as they may be in some quarters, they are an integral part of a quality school and any programme of teacher develpoment, especially the ones with a nice little paper qual at the end. It is all very well saying one can plan a lesson in great detail and provide a clear rationale for it. But concrete evidence is what counts, and only an observation supplies this.

[fluffyhamster]

I can understand the need for proving oneself, and a genuine, professional and well-prepared teacher won't mind doing so, in an observation, or maybe sometimes on Dave's or wherever (e.g. quite a few of us have a go at answering grammar questions, or supplying activity ideas etc, even when there is no real reason why we should) - I guess we all ultimately have a need to be valued. And of course, a good observer, full of constructive advice and a little bit of praise here and there, should be almost as if not more welcome than a respondent on a discussion board (because they can not only read the plan but be there for the lesson too). But there does come a time (or sometimes might be times) when teachers should be within their rights, have earnt the right, to say to observers, 'All due respect, but you really needn't be obliged to continue to feel responsible for the quality of my lessons much/any longer'. To actively WANT to continue to be observed way into a career (unless one is e.g. tweaking the descriptors of a revolutionary new model of classroom discourse interaction or something) just seems a little...insecure? Needy? ('I need approval almost as much if not moreso than the observer needs to approve. If I'm left to my own devices I just don't know what I'll do to feel motivated enough to work half as hard as I just did for Observer X'). The approval of students is what really matters, and provided they don't actively disapprove (and loudly complain!), I myself would soon leave teachers well enough alone after as few intrusions sorry observations as possible (unless they specifically requested to be observed more). (Vote for Fluffyhamster for Supreme DOS of the Uhiverse NOW! Then watch, nodding approvingly, as his school's student retention rate plummets impressively and unavoidably! ).

[Marcoregano]

I no longer teach but still feel qualified to comment on 'observations'. At the training level (ie. when you are doing your CELTA, BEd, PGCE, etc.) I think they are useful and probably necessary - and by that I mean both observing experienced teachers at work and being observed by experienced teachers/trainers.

However, once qualified I take a totally different viewpoint - for most teachers observations become intrusive and counterproductive, a bit like having someone in your bedroom. When a teacher is experienced there is little point in being observed - except by a trainee of course - unless perhaps if there have been sustained complaints about the teacher concerned. Even then though, the observer will not witness a typical lesson - it will be a lesson constructed for the observation and both teacher and students will behave differently during the observation. Ergo, at this level, observations are potentially divisive and in most instances a waste of time.