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matt045
Joined: 08 Dec 2008
Posts: 8
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 Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:23 am Post subject: "in country" tesol training and being able to get |
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I am interested in teaching english and living in China. I posted before about the Celta vs Tesol, and most responses indicated that the Celta was not really practical for China. I can take a 100 hour Tesol in San Diego for about $1300, or can take a 140 hour Tesol course in China for about $2000 including housing. The 100 hour has 6 hours of practice teaching.
If I take the course in China, will I have to leave to get a z visa when I get a job? I have read on the forum that it is best to get the visa before I come to China, but the advantages of some culture immersion and being able to practice teach to actual Chinese is appealing. Are Chinese schools able to get z visas for walk in hires without me having to leave the country? Any opinions from more knowledgeable people? Any reputable and good Tesol programs that you can recommend- I sure see some that seem shady, and it would be great to hear which are the good ones from people who have actually attended. Also, when do the semesters start and end in China? Thanks, Matt |
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Kibbs
Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 64
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| Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:10 am Post subject: |
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| Don't do any tefl in China, period. |
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matt045
Joined: 08 Dec 2008
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:51 am Post subject: |
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| Uhh, care to elaborate.......Does that mean don't get a certificate in China, don't teach ESL in China????? |
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7969
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5782
Location: Coastal Guangdong
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| Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:15 am Post subject: |
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| matt, i would say it means - come to china, work for a term or two, find out if you think you'll like this kind of work, then decide to invest some time and money in tefl training. those courses arent cheap and much of what you learn cant really be applied in the typical chinese classroom. that's my advice anyway. |
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Kibbs
Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 64
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| Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Get the TEFL certification in your home country first, then apply for a job with a legal work visa. The TEFL programs that offer in-country training often bring you to China on a F vis with promises to get a Z visa converted later. Avoid. |
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Cohen
Joined: 30 Dec 2008
Posts: 91
Location: Hong Kong
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| Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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| 7969 wrote: |
| those courses arent cheap and much of what you learn cant really be applied in the typical chinese classroom. |
Globally recognised certificates such as the CELTA are bog-standard, introductory, pre-service courses, and as such they give those who are yet to teach in insight into ESL. Such courses focus on lesson planning, preparation, co-planning, co-teaching, observing other teachers, being observed by other teachers, and incorporating feedback from peers into future lessons. They also concentrate on how to raise interest on the part of the students, how to contextualise and structure lessons, and how to elicit answers from students (i.e., how to give rise to language production). In addition they give an introduction (albeit it a somewhat laughable layman's introduction) into language structure, typically a bit of productive phonetics, a touch of simplified phonology, some basic morphology, and sprinkling of over-simplified syntax (about equal to what a first year linguistics undergraduate would cover in his first two or three lectures). Nevertheless, to their credit such courses arguably teach such aspects of basic language structure to the extent needed by both a novice teacher and the students.
I am just wondering, 7969, how can you claim that such skills, experience, and knowledge "can't be applied in the typical Chinese classroom"? And what about professionalism and personal development, not to mention self-respect? Personally I think it is attitudes such as yours that keep wages so low in China. After all, if the teachers themselves openly argue against the need for any basic training then one should not really be all too overly surprised if wages are very low! |
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daveups
Joined: 07 Jan 2009
Posts: 27
Location: Lost somewhere in Zhongguo!
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| Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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I took what I believe to be an excellent TESOL course in Harbin, China. I had no experience teaching whatsoever before hand, so I was very nervous about getting into the classroom.
The trainers were professional and knowledgeable. The teaching practice exposed me to a variety of levels and ages. There was a heavy emphasis on lesson planning and a grammar (we even had one input session devoted to an introduction to linguistics).
The course covered everything mentioned in the above posters outline and a bit more. They also had several input sessions that taught us how to deal specifically with Chinese students and the Chinese work environment.
They also got me a 10-month teaching contract and residence permit.
I do not have experience with other TESOL/TEFL programs, but this one was very well organized and has given me the confidence to teach. |
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7969
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5782
Location: Coastal Guangdong
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:06 am Post subject: |
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| Cohen wrote: |
| 7969 wrote: |
| those courses arent cheap and much of what you learn cant really be applied in the typical chinese classroom. |
Globally recognised certificates such as the CELTA are bog-standard, introductory, pre-service courses, and as such they give those who are yet to teach in insight into ESL. Such courses focus on lesson planning, preparation, co-planning, co-teaching, observing other teachers, being observed by other teachers, and incorporating feedback from peers into future lessons. They also concentrate on how to raise interest on the part of the students, how to contextualise and structure lessons, and how to elicit answers from students (i.e., how to give rise to language production). In addition they give an introduction (albeit it a somewhat laughable layman's introduction) into language structure, typically a bit of productive phonetics, a touch of simplified phonology, some basic morphology, and sprinkling of over-simplified syntax (about equal to what a first year linguistics undergraduate would cover in his first two or three lectures). Nevertheless, to their credit such courses arguably teach such aspects of basic language structure to the extent needed by both a novice teacher and the students.
I am just wondering, 7969, how can you claim that such skills, experience, and knowledge "can't be applied in the typical Chinese classroom"? And what about professionalism and personal development, not to mention self-respect? Personally I think it is attitudes such as yours that keep wages so low in China. After all, if the teachers themselves openly argue against the need for any basic training then one should not really be all too overly surprised if wages are very low! |
anyone who has done a CELTA (i have) will know that the conditions that exist in the training scenarios on that course do not mirror in any way the realities of most mainland chinese classrooms. people who have been in china and who've done any tefl/celta training will know what i'm talking about.
further, i never said that EVERYTHING you learned on these courses was useless in china. there are some things you learn on celta/tefl that can be useful, which you mentioned and which could be applied in most places. but frankly speaking, the celta instructors i had were blind to the realities of esl in most of asia, since the two instructors we had, had done their teaching in the middle east and spain. their insight into esl in china was extremely limited and a lot of the teaching ideas simply wont work with large classes of (often) unmotivated students. i will say that tefl training done IN china with instructors who have actually taught in the country would be more beneficial to potential esl teachers.
my advice to matt (and others) has nothing do do with keeping wages in china low as you argue but i think for anyone who hasnt done any esl teaching before (esp. in china), they ought to do a short stint here first to see if they might like this type of work before spending $1300+ (more if you factor in living and travel costs) on any of these courses.
face it, most esl'ers in china dont stay long. for someone who does CELTA and then comes to china, if they last only one term, they've spent the equivalent of 30% of the salary they earned in china on training they may never use again.
my five years in china tells me that what will make a better esl teacher in this country is the following:
1. good organizational skills;
2. good personality;
3. someone who is flexible and can adapt to changing situations; and
4. someone who is able to do some self analysis, learn from their mistakes and subsequently improve themselves and the material they present to the class.
these are things that cant be taught however. you either have them or you dont have them.
anyway, my opinion is only one of many... matt045 can make his own decision on what to do.
Last edited by 7969 on Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Cohen
Joined: 30 Dec 2008
Posts: 91
Location: Hong Kong
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:31 am Post subject: |
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| 7969 wrote: |
| anyone who has done a CELTA (i have) will know that the conditions that exist in the training scenarios on that course do not mirror in any way the realities of most mainland chinese classrooms. people who have been in china and who've done any tefl/celta training will know what i'm talking about. |
Sorry to shatter your illusions, 7969, but I've also done the CELTA (shock, horor!), and I've done the DELTA, too. The 'conditions' I had when I completed the former course at the British Council here in Hong Kong where pretty much representative of what one finds in the typical classroom here in HK: large, mixed-ability, mixed-L1 classes (we taught asylum seekers in our practice sessions). I do not believe this is all too different from conditions prevalent on the mainland (and, yes, I've taught in the PRC, too).
| 7969 wrote: |
| but frankly speaking, the celta instructors i had were blind to the realities of esl in most of asia, since the two instructors we had, had done their teaching in the middle east and spain. their insight into esl in china was extremely limited. tefl training IN china might be more beneficial with instructors who have actually taught in the country. |
Well, I think this simply says more about the course in Thailand than it does about the course per se. Perhaps you should have taken it somewhere that the instructors actually have the experience and knowledge to which you allude? I think that is what most sensible people would do. After all, in this life you invariably you get what you pay for, and that is especially true in Asia. Also, you seem to assume that people will only ever stay in China, which I think is a tad unrealistic/unlikely (and I am not even sure if it is possible � is there not a ten-year limit rule for residence in the PRC?). Many might well want to go to the ME and countries such as Spain to work in the future and in such areas and countries the CELTA will be worth its weight in gold.
| 7969 wrote: |
| face it, most esl'ers in china dont stay long. for someone who does CELTA and then comes to china, if they last only one term, they've spent about 30% of the salary (more if you factor in living and travel costs) they earned in china on training they may never use again. |
Well, again, I simply think this says more about wages in China than it does about the CELTA course. And, again, I submit that one of the reasons why wages are so low in China (you refer to US$1,000 as a lot of money, which it is most certainly not) is that so few ESLers in China have any basic ESL training. |
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7969
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5782
Location: Coastal Guangdong
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:35 am Post subject: |
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| Cohen wrote: |
| Well, I think this simply says more about the course in Thailand than it does about the course per se. |
where did i mention that i took the course in thailand? |
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Cohen
Joined: 30 Dec 2008
Posts: 91
Location: Hong Kong
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7969
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5782
Location: Coastal Guangdong
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:26 am Post subject: |
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| Cohen wrote: |
| 7969 wrote: |
| but frankly speaking, the celta instructors i had were blind to the realities of esl in most of asia, since the two instructors we had, had done their teaching in the middle east and spain. their insight into esl in china was extremely limited. tefl training IN china might be more beneficial with instructors who have actually taught in the country. |
Well, I think this simply says more about the course in Thailand than it does about the course per se. Perhaps you should have taken it somewhere that the instructors actually have the experience and knowledge to which you allude? I think that is what most sensible people would do. |
i didnt know where i would end up after i did the training. and i just happened to be in bangkok at the time i decided to do the course. and i think most sensible people would say that taking a course being held right down the road from where you live would be the SENSIBLE decision. and we can do without your poorly disguised ad hominem attack next time. btw, you wouldnt be carrying any anger from the "online degree" thread in the off topic forum onto this one now, would you? 
| Cohen wrote: |
| 7969 wrote: |
| face it, most esl'ers in china dont stay long. for someone who does CELTA and then comes to china, if they last only one term, they've spent about 30% of the salary (more if you factor in living and travel costs) they earned in china on training they may never use again. |
Well, again, I simply think this says more about wages in China than it does about the CELTA course. And, again, I submit that one of the reasons why wages are so low in China (you refer to US$1,000 as a lot of money, which it is most certainly not) is that so few ESLers in China have any basic ESL training. |
the price of a celta (approx $1300.00USD) is a lot of money for what you get in return. and i think for most people $1000.00 is still a considerable sum.
i'm glad you linked to that other thread however. it gives people more opinions on the topic being discussed. and if you read that thread, you might have noticed i dont trash celta or tefl or any other course. i merely say that, in my opinion, they arent worth what they cost and they havent proven particularly useful for some of us in china.
again, what i've written here, and in other posts, is my opinion. other people feel differently.
Last edited by 7969 on Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:53 am; edited 1 time in total |
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7969
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5782
Location: Coastal Guangdong
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:42 am Post subject: |
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| Cohen wrote: |
| 7969 wrote: |
| those courses arent cheap and much of what you learn cant really be applied in the typical chinese classroom. |
Globally recognised certificates such as the CELTA are bog-standard, introductory, pre-service courses, and as such they give those who are yet to teach in insight into ESL. Such courses focus on lesson planning, preparation, co-planning, co-teaching, observing other teachers, being observed by other teachers, and incorporating feedback from peers into future lessons. They also concentrate on how to raise interest on the part of the students, how to contextualise and structure lessons, and how to elicit answers from students (i.e., how to give rise to language production). In addition they give an introduction (albeit it a somewhat laughable layman's introduction) into language structure, typically a bit of productive phonetics, a touch of simplified phonology, some basic morphology, and sprinkling of over-simplified syntax (about equal to what a first year linguistics undergraduate would cover in his first two or three lectures). Nevertheless, to their credit such courses arguably teach such aspects of basic language structure to the extent needed by both a novice teacher and the students. |
| Cohen wrote: |
| 7969 wrote: |
| anyone who has done a CELTA (i have) will know that the conditions that exist in the training scenarios on that course do not mirror in any way the realities of most mainland chinese classrooms. people who have been in china and who've done any tefl/celta training will know what i'm talking about. |
Sorry to shatter your illusions, 7969, but I've also done the CELTA (shock, horor!), and I've done the DELTA, too. The 'conditions' I had when I completed the former course at the British Council here in Hong Kong where pretty much representative of what one finds in the typical classroom here in HK: large, mixed-ability, mixed-L1 classes (we taught asylum seekers in our practice sessions). I do not believe this is all too different from conditions prevalent on the mainland (and, yes, I've taught in the PRC, too). |
Cohen's posts
Cohen...
| 11:59 wrote: |
OP, I suggest you take the advice of the distracters with a pinch of salt, if not a whole shaker. A good, solid, globally-recognised pre-service course such as the CELTA, in addition to post-CELTA experience, will be a requisite to obtaining a decent (or semi-decent) TEFL post, and it does indeed make a difference as regards remuneration, as does a DELTA (which is what you should look towards a few years after completing your CELTA).
At the British Council in HK, for example (what I would term a semi-decent low-end TEFL post) a CELTA is essential:
http://www.britishcouncil.org/job_adv_for_lt_mar_08.pdf
In addition, for hourly paid contract work a CELTA gets you $377 HK per contact hour, and a DELTA $418:
http://www.britishcouncil.org/tehp_dec2007_jobad-3.pdf |
11:59's post
are you also 11:59? the three posts sound suspiciously similar in tone and construction, not to mention location.... no matter, you'll always know my posts on here since my handle never changes (for any reason).
now, i'm out outta here... i have holidays to attend to. Happy Chinese New Year everyone...  |
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Cohen
Joined: 30 Dec 2008
Posts: 91
Location: Hong Kong
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 6:26 am Post subject: |
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| Boy! Two barely coherent posts in rapid succession. It seems that I struck a raw nerve. God only knows why, after all, I do not think it all that controversial that people should strive to have some form of basic training for their job. And why on Earth would anyone be 'angry' if others wanted to pursue an online 'degree'? If someone wants to waste their time and money in that way then that is their business, all I wanted to do was add my own two cents, namely, that such 'degrees' are an utter waste of time, for the simple reason that the sort of employers who expect and demand a degree do not typically accept online variants. And I don't personally think that US$1,000 is a vast sum of money; it represents less than a fortnight's work here even for a novice on a modest salary. Also, I think your view is just too myopic. If you pay US$1,000 for a CELTA then you have that qualification for life: you don't have to 'renew' it every few years as you do with similar entry-level certificates in other industries/fields. If somebody has, say, thirty years of ESL work of one sort or another ahead of them then you have to divide that US$1,000 by some 360 months (30 multiplied by 12), which is an absolute pittance in anybody's book. At the end of the day, I think that if you want others (i.e., employers) to take you at all seriously, and if you expect such employers to invest in you, then you have to be prepared to take yourself seriously and to be equally as prepared to invest in yourself. |
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China.Pete
Joined: 27 Apr 2006
Posts: 547
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 7:21 am Post subject: Basic Job Training |
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"God only knows why, after all, I do not think it all that controversial that people should strive to have some form of basic training for their job." -- Cohen
Right. Irrespective of whether a TEFL Certificate will necessarily help you to get a job or not, or whether you would have been able to get the same or similar job without it (in all likelihood, yes), it can be a good beginning to a more professional approach to teaching English in China. But cost is definitely something to think about, given the prevailing wages in China. Therefore, I would recommend that the OP deal with the issues of training and employment separately. Choose a TEFL program, whether online or otherwise, based on what you are able to justify with your salary expectations and the length of time you anticipate staying here. |
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