|
Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
redeyes
Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 254
|
 Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:53 am Post subject: |
 |
|
So you'd say John and others, that there's not any significant difference in the way Saudis ( students, management, the general populace) view American and British teachers and in the ways British and Americans generally react to the culture/environment? That's very different indeed from other countries I have worked in, so it's a relief to know that in Saudi they see our cultures and react to us in similar manner/ terms --Hopefully they don't hold us all responsible for what our "leaders" do and our history.
Mia seems to feel more vulnerable -- specifically for being an American :
| Quote: |
| Personally, I do not feel safer here than I do in the US. That is largely because I am a woman, and I do not feel it is as safe here for a woman as it is for a man. A second reason is that I am an American in Al Khobar |
Also, from your posts John, it's clear that you didn't find Saudi a matter of "survival" at all, and it looks like you were content enough there. You must have been to stay 19 years.
John, you'll have to excuse my naivety regarding Saudi, and also sometimes what look like blundering or simplistic questions -- I have taught and lived with Muslims for years but have never taught in the ME/Gulf. That's why I ask lots of questions of the people that have.
NCTBA, you keep on saying "Saudi sux" -- I know you had an awful employer there, but in which other ways did it "suck?" You wrote --
| Quote: |
| Saudi is not safe and anyone who says so is delusional. |
I get the impression that in some regards, you found it family friendly at least, which has to be good.
Cleo, your post is encouraging in that you say that occasionally felt "bad vibes" do not typically turn to actual physical threat. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Never Ceased To Be Amazed
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 3500
Location: Shhh...don't talk to me...I'm playin' dead...
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
| redeyes wrote: |
In some countries I have worked, many of the American EFL staff often found it very difficult to live with the sheer hate levelled at America's leaders/policies etc.
( A lot of the British staff found it difficult to accept their obviously diminshed role/profile in world affairs, and some of the Aussies/Canadians found it irritating that no one knew what their capital city was or who their PM was -- but that's another story!) |
Insofar as your first quoted sentence, I, too, have worked with such boobs. I'm a vet and a patriot...and as such, I found it my duty to oppose Bush on virtually every front. I remember when I worked at Raytheon, how almost the entire ELT staff, except for us vets (one a 'Nam vet), were a bunch of flag-waving lunatics blindly cheering Bush and his war on. Too bad I exited stage right BEFORE Abu Gharib...I would've been very interested to see if their rhetoric had calmed down from that time on. They were sooo defensive about America and American foreign policies that it became apparent that deep, deep down inside they, too, knew what was happening was wrong. But, to admit that would cause sooo much soul-searching that one thing would probably lead to another...
As to your second quote, I have worked with that crowd as well! Unfortunately, for me, one of them was my boss and made my life a living hell! The only 'mericans that he tolerated were those sycophant enough to agree with his every word. Never had I felt as liberated as when I gave my 90-day notice.
As far as Aussies and Canadians are concerned, except for one very short stint with some downright nasty ones...a real anomaly, I have always found them to be laid back and friendly folk.
NCTBA |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
redeyes
Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 254
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
Thanks NCTBA -- a lot of what you say accords with my experience, which is why I said on another thread that EFL has to be one of the cliquiest professions in the world, full of people who grow to despise ALL British or ALL Americans -- just because they had a run in with one or two of those country's people. Such a view never occured to me before I beacme an EFL'er. TEFL staffrooms unfortunately, seems to re inforce national stereotyping and a bunker mentality. I don't know why that is. Safety in numbers perhaps, in an alien environment? ( Maybe a reflection on the kinds of people that become teachers, but I won't go there because it sounds elitist and hypocritical -- "What, you think you are better than us other teachers huh?" )
Anyway, thanks for your reply -- can you elaborate further on the rest of my query ( see here posted again )?
| Quote: |
NCTBA, you keep on saying "Saudi sux" -- I know you had an awful employer there, but in which other ways did it "suck?" You wrote -- Quote:
Saudi is not safe and anyone who says so is delusional.
I get the impression that in some regards, you found it family friendly at least, which has to be good. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Never Ceased To Be Amazed
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 3500
Location: Shhh...don't talk to me...I'm playin' dead...
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
| redeyes wrote: |
NCTBA, you keep on saying "Saudi sux" -- I know you had an awful employer there, but in which other ways did it "suck?"
Mainly for societal reasons. Visit my listing on th GME board under "PhD. in Humanities". No one has yet challenged me on any of the points that I listed. Thank God, I stayed on military contractor's compounds! It preserved my very thin hold on sanity.
You wrote --
| Quote: |
| Saudi is not safe and anyone who says so is delusional. |
I'd say long beards going from door to door in order to kill innocent women and chldren pretty well sums it up for me. It made it hard as hell for me to leave my wife and child to go teach those Air Defense A-holes.
Oh, and the driving...it's murderous!
I get the impression that in some regards, you found it family friendly at least, which has to be good. |
Yes, we did...of course, that before the door to door exercises that I spoke of above.
The one good thing about boards like this is...if you read them...and you still decide to go...then it's all on you. Again, you can't talk somone bent of suicide offa ledge.
NCTBA |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
redeyes
Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 254
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:38 am Post subject: |
|
|
Thanks NCTBA -- but presuming you weren't on a "foreigners only" compound/appt block, but living with other lecturers of all races and creeds, but mainly Muslim (and some employers , KFUPM for example, do put their western staff in such appts ) -- then that would take away the danger of the door to door guys you mention wouldn't it, and be far safer than a "foreigners only" easy target compund?
What would be the other tough things to bear with in Saudi, ifyour appt and job were pretty fair and above board? By all accounts, KFUPM is a first class employer and the city isn't too bad either. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Never Ceased To Be Amazed
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 3500
Location: Shhh...don't talk to me...I'm playin' dead...
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
| redeyes wrote: |
Thanks NCTBA -- but presuming you weren't on a "foreigners only" compound/appt block, but living with other lecturers of all races and creeds, but mainly Muslim (and some employers , KFUPM for example, do put their western staff in such appts ) -- then that would take away the danger of the door to door guys you mention wouldn't it, and be far safer than a "foreigners only" easy target compund?
Well that is to assume that "if you're foreign, then you must not be Muslim". I know that that's NOT what you meant, but some readers may start to "pidgeon-hole" "foreigners" that way. I worked with many a good American converts.
There's a prolific poster on this board who lived in a mixed Arab-Westerner compound and he did well. It was that darned mosque in the middle of the compound that put me off. Remember, call to prayer happens five times a day. But to each his own. I don't think that he ever feared for his personal safety. But, then again, dogma can blind one. (NOT him, but those who might have harmed him or his neighbors).
I almost started laughing when you mentioned "lecturers" as my esteemed colleagues were mainly flight line personnel who always considered us ELT folk as, mainly, homsexual baggage on the contract. The fact that many of us had families didn't fool them a wit!  They mostly were high school grads and it showed. Those who weren't HS grads had at least gotten their GEDs. A nice lot, but not very well-read.
If the truth be known, it was the contracting nature of our project that us degree folk earned the contractor the most money and kept it being a cash cow.
What would be the other tough things to bear with in Saudi, ifyour appt and job were pretty fair and above board? By all accounts, KFUPM is a first class employer and the city isn't too bad either.
I've heard some fair things about that place, but turned down the offer anyway. Redeyes, the bottom line is this: Each person has their own capacity for BS. Mine has been and always will be very low. I did my job for many a year in Saudi, but held my nose when doing it. My goal was the God Almighty dollar. I needed lots and I needed them quick. Now, one might say that 10 years isn't "quick", but I say anyone that can walk away and plunk down 100% cash on a home purchase (making my realtor's eyes bulge in the process),,,that person comes out the victor.
I speak of Saudi now as that's all I could do at the time and I made a dang good living as a military subcontractor. Those days are gone now with the exception of a very few. I was able to upgrade my creds, take a long, long bath to wash away many of the memories and continue on somewhere else. You'll note that I don't start threads on the Saudi board, but have no feeling that I shouldn't contribute when I think I can give some input.
Good luck in the EP and, BY ALL MEANS GET THAT MULTIPLE RE-ENTRY VISA!!! 
|
NCTBA |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
Cleo, your post is encouraging in that you say that occasionally felt "bad vibes" do not typically turn to actual physical threat. |
Obviously we can only speak of anecdotal evidence here. However, to repeat, I have never once suffered any sort of physical abuse in my several years in KSA, nor have I heard of anyone suffering abuse from strangers here (colleagues are another matter....)
However, you may hear differently from other people. In the absence of reliable statistics (and how much do they really tell you anyway?) you have to be your own judge about the relative safety of KSA. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
Cleo, your post is encouraging in that you say that occasionally felt "bad vibes" do not typically turn to actual physical threat. |
Obviously we can only speak of anecdotal evidence here. However, to repeat, I have never once suffered any sort of physical abuse in my several years in KSA, nor have I heard of anyone suffering abuse from strangers here (colleagues are another matter....)
However, you may hear differently from other people. In the absence of reliable statistics (and how much do they really tell you anyway?) you have to be your own judge about the relative safety of KSA. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mia Xanthi
Joined: 13 Mar 2008
Posts: 955
Location: why is my heart still in the Middle East while the rest of me isn't?
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Thanks NCTBA -- but presuming you weren't on a "foreigners only" compound/appt block, but living with other lecturers of all races and creeds, but mainly Muslim (and some employers , KFUPM for example, do put their western staff in such appts ) -- then that would take away the danger of the door to door guys you mention wouldn't it, and be far safer than a "foreigners only" easy target compund? |
The fact that a compound is "mixed" stops no one. The Vinnell compound was mixed, and the Oasis compound was mixed. At the Oasis, they just went door to door and asked if the residents were Muslim. Those who said no were killed.
There were plenty of Muslims at the WTC as well. Didn't make any difference, did it? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
007
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Sheikh N Bake wrote: |
| Physical safety in the U.S. is competitive with other countries and it is far safer than, for example, many South American countries. A recent analysis by a respected British firm (sorry, I can't recall the name now), an annual ranking of the safety of world cities, shows San Fran., Houston and Chicago well ahead of London in safety. Some British colleagues on this board agreed with that. |
Well, Sheikh Nano, it seems you are abusing and playing with statistics when it comes to violence and crimes in the USA!
Don't you know that the USA is the world's most violent industrialized country in this planet when it comes to mass shootings, drugs, and street violence!
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/478845/the_usa_is_the_worlds_most_violent.html?cat=47
Why?
Read what an American teacher in Thailand said about crimes and violence in the land of Uncle Sam:
" Almost every month in the US there is a mass shooting and sometimes, like this month, more than one. Compared to the rest of the world, which saw only one school shooting this year, at a school in Finland, the United States has had four. I am an American teacher in Thailand, and one of the reasons I left the United States is that I wouldn't teach in the United States again, due to the violence, the drugs, the gangs and the disrespect of teachers. In Thailand, and in most other countries in Asia, this sorry state of affairs just doesn't exist. Why is this?"
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/478845/the_usa_is_the_worlds_most_violent.html?cat=47
According to an investigation in the above link, mass shootings in the USA are in rise, especially in schools and churches!
So, the conclusion is that the Magic Kingdom is safer to work and live than USA.
| Quote: |
| I didn't feel safe in Jeddah because I was always harassed, sometimes viciously, though never physically, by people in the street when I went jogging in the residential streets where I lived. |
Well, of course if you have been jogging half-nacked and showing your white legs and thighs in public, then people will harass you because you offended their culture. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
trapezius
Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Land of Culture of Death & Destruction
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Jogging half-nekkid, and showing his white legs and thighs in public?
You like to assume a lot, don't you?
How do you what he was wearing?
And how do you know what color skin he has? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
redeyes
Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 254
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Mia, thanks for your reply -- if you don't mind me being candid, you sound less optimistic about Saudi now than you have been in the past, when you typically had a stoic, but consistently balanced optimism about the place -- Can I ask you and others, ( Cleo, 007, Scot, Stephen,Trapezius et al ) has Israel's savage,brutal attack on Gaza left Westerners in Saudi feeling fear about reprisal attacks on Saudi soil against those who are perceived to be "on Israel's side"?
I'd appreciate your views. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
those who are perceived to be "on Israel's side"?
|
Thus far there have been no reports of attacks on Saudi government installations. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
trapezius
Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Land of Culture of Death & Destruction
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I am not a Westerner, so I couldn't answer that. I have asked a couple of Westerners, and they said they did not feel any less safe because of Israel's actions. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
redeyes
Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 254
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Sure Cleo, I certainly understand your message -- but for the general populace, surely it would be far easier ( and more satisfying?) to direct and vent their rage at white western non Muslim targets than Saudi ones wouldn't it?
Thanks also Trapezius -- can I ask you your view , why is there more than the usual/a sudden rush of negative posters about Saudi then, and many of them expressing a fear for their safety?
I am no naive twit, and I know Saudi is no easy option by any means -- but the tone of the board seems more stressed/fearful than usual. I couldn't help but think perhaps Israeli carpet bombings had something to do with it, and anxiety that perhaps Muslims may just look for ways to vent anger at injustice.
Last edited by redeyes on Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:49 pm; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
