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| Should the apostrophe be abolished? |
| Most definitely. Its obsolete. |
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5% |
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| Never. It's essential. |
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76% |
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| Frankly, my dear - I dont give a darn. |
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11% |
[ 2 ] |
| Whats an apostrophe, anyway? |
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5% |
[ 1 ] |
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| Total Votes : 17 |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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 Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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Dear killian,
" . . . but for geographical stuff such as "New Halls Ferry" or "New Hall's Ferry" they are irrelevant.
Ah, but once you're (or your) on that slippery slope, where will it all end?
Here, perhaps: "ihavedecidedtoabolishallpunctuationforclarityjustin"
Regards,
John |
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MO39
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Posts: 1970
Location: El ombligo de la Rep�blica Mexicana
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| Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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| johnslat wrote: |
Maybe it should be Christmas for the Christians, Winterval for the politically correct, and Festivus for the rest of us.
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Isn't it amazing how Seinfeld motifs still resonate years after it went off the air? By the way John, I would add "Chanukah for the Jews among us"  ! |
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Never Ceased To Be Amazed
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 3500
Location: Shhh...don't talk to me...I'm playin' dead...
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| Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| johnslat wrote: |
"ihavedecidedtoabolishallpunctuationforclarityjustin"
Regards,
John |
Now, I recognize that word! It's a town in Wales! 
NCTBA |
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fluffyhamster
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
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| Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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| killian wrote: |
back on topic: apostrophes. they have many applications.
for contractions such as "I'd" and "we've" they are necessary yet.
but for geographical stuff such as "New Halls Ferry" or "New Hall's Ferry" they are irrelevant. |
'Irrelevant', or 'relatively easy to appreciate' (so why not continue with it). I doubt if non-native speakers have a problem with the apostrophe, or fail to appreciate its uses. |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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Dear MO39 (my apologies),
"Isn't it amazing how Seinfeld motifs still resonate years after it went off the air?"
Boy, is it ever - including this:
'Jerry Seinfeld and Larry David pitched Seinfeld as a "show about nothing," ' . . .
which some might say resonates in some threads here (including, of course, this one.)
Regards,
John
Last edited by johnslat on Sun Feb 01, 2009 9:32 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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MO39
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Posts: 1970
Location: El ombligo de la Rep�blica Mexicana
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| Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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| johnslat wrote: |
Dear fluffyhamster,
"Isn't it amazing how Seinfeld motifs still resonate years after it went off the air?"
Regards,
John |
Dear john,
Shouldn't that be "Dear MO39.."? 
Cheers,
MO |
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Madame J
Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Posts: 239
Location: Oxford, United Kingdom
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 12:08 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| the PC-mad US habit of saying, "Happy holidays", is it? Except that the latter is laced with irony, seeing as Americans barely get any. |
The Americans hardly get any vacations; they don't use 'holiday' in the sense of vacation.[/quote]
Ha, yeah, that's what I meant. That's why I always thought "holiday" was a bit of a vague term for Christmas/Hanukkah, seeing as here it could easily apply to summer vacations. But I forget you use it differently. Anyway.
I agree with killian as far as necessary vs. necessary apostrophe usage goes (by golly does it wind me up seeing "we're" written, "were"!), but surely having any sort of official distinction between the two would be impossible. Far easier just to remember when to use them! |
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fluffyhamster
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 1:31 am Post subject: |
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| My slight edit of what Madame J wrote wrote: |
| I agree with killian as far as necessary vs. "irrelevant" apostrophe usage goes (by golly does it wind me up seeing "we're" written, "were"!), but surely having any sort of official or principled distinction between the two would be impossible. Far easier just to remember when to use them! |
Exactly! (I was going to say something like that myself, but edited it out to make a somewhat different point  ). |
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MO39
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Posts: 1970
Location: El ombligo de la Rep�blica Mexicana
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 1:59 am Post subject: |
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| Hmm, I wonder what the "corpus thingy" that several posters are so fond of would say about our friend the apostrophe? |
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fluffyhamster
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 3:09 am Post subject: |
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| MO39 wrote: |
| Hmm, I wonder what the "corpus thingy" that several posters are so fond of would say about our friend the apostrophe? |
I'm not quite sure what your question is, MO39. The apostrophes that are there, correct and present in the data, can be and indeed are accounted for in e.g. the BNC tagset, whilst those that weren't would surely be of concern mainly to the poor human called in to resolve the presumable tagging problems than they would be to supposedly competent users of the language in the outside world; certainly, misuse or omission of some facts is no justification for their "not being needed anymore" - this isn't semantics that we're on about (e.g. strange newfangled meaning-"extensions" and uses for words for which there may have been a perfectly serviceable word available elsewhere in a "more educated/less thick" person's lexicon, apparently), but grammar "pure and simple". Anyway, FWIW, investigations of punctuation haven't IIRC loomed that large if at all in what little CL reading I've done.
Which is all just another way of saying that it is relatively easy for grammarians to write very adequate rules for the use of the apostrophe (as opposed to the exact behaviour of, ironically, the more "noticeable" and "obvious" items in the lexicogrammar, where intuition and certainly not always logic really cannot compensate for empirically determining "the facts" (i.e. with a view to description if not derived prescription)). People can of course choose not to follow those rules (especially if the rules are not conveyed well or clearly), but that would be their "mistake" rather than a truly acceptable fact of grammar ("the" grammar!).
http://ucrel.lancs.ac.uk/bnc2/bnc2guide.htm |
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johnnyenglishteacher
Joined: 11 Aug 2006
Posts: 41
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:19 pm Post subject: Re: Signs of the Times? |
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| johnslat wrote: |
Mullaney hopes to stop public campaigns to restore the apostrophe that would tell passers-by that "Kings Heath" was once owned by the monarchy.
"Apostrophes denote possessions that are no longer accurate, and are not needed," he said. "More importantly, they confuse people. If I want to go to a restaurant, I don't want to have an A-level (high school diploma) in English to find it."
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WHAT?!?!??! How thick does this man think Brummies are? They're so likely to get confused by an apostrophe on a street sign, aren't they?
And what will happen if they decide to leave Birmingham and visit The Other Places Where The Humans Live? God help anyone who, for example, wants to go for a walk on Lord Hereford's Knob (That is a real place, honestly). |
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killian
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 937
Location: fairmont city, illinois, USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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| slippery slope? maybe. i have full confidence that a living language can adapt and grow. in written english we've pretty much done away with diacrits and no one seems much fussed over the removal. |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:07 am Post subject: |
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Dear killian,
But weren't most/all "English" words with diacrits "loan words" from French, especially - so we stole the whole word, diacrit and all. Once they've been assimilated (kind of like with the Borg - resistance is futile) the diacrits vanish - which can lead to sentences such as this one:
You can resume your resume now.
Regards,
John |
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killian
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 937
Location: fairmont city, illinois, USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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yes, assimilation. have you ever had the chance to see guttenberg's bible? the diacrits abound everywhere. the english grammarians (or somebody) has seen fit to discard them. perhaps as "assimilarion"/"globalization" advances the diacrits wil return (in the US, many latin athletes have the tilde included on their uniform) in synch with the regresssion of the apostrophe.
the language is alive and kickin' and that is muy bueno so we'll still be in demand as teachers. |
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