Job Discussion Forums

[El Gallo]

Hi,

Could one of you Brits please help out me (? ) with your rules for separating phrasal verbs?

I'm teaching a Cambridge First Certificate class at a University and need to make sure they understand the British rules for this.

I know you can separate phrasal verbs with adverb particles and nouns like:

"Key in the number" or "Key the number in" but I'm confused about pronouns. To my old gringo ears "Key it in" sounds right but not: "Key in it"

What about three word phrasal verbs.? I can "get it over with" but I think the correct British usage is "get over with it"

The book rules are not clear to me and also say you can't separate with prepositions as particles. So it's not OK to "turn the TV off" Is the word "off" here an adverb or preposition?

I'm oh so confused. Can you help out me?

Thanks!

[lozwich]

I speak pretty good British English, and I would never say "Key in it", and nor have I ever heard anyone say "get over with it" to mean get it over with.

Try taking a look at Swan's Practical English Usage, in my edition, point 582 for a full explanation (that is easy to follow) of particle/preposition usage.

[ontoit]

Trust your instincts and experience. If you are a university-educated native speaker and it sounds right, then it most probably is.

And if anyone gives you grief about it, tell them emphatically and in your best Winston Churchill accent that "This is the sort of nonsense up with which I refuse to put," before storming out of the room.

[El Gallo]

Thanks for the advice. There doesn't seem to be any firm rules about this and I don't think British and American English is that much different in this regard.

Does anyone know if my students will encounter this on their First Certificate exam? Page 208 of the student book gives the rules I mentioned but they are confusing and don't seem to work in all cases.

[lozwich]

[El Gallo]

The student book is Cambridge Objective First Certificate. I haven't been able to find your other reference yet. Thanks again!

[lozwich]

We have that book where I work. If I have time, I'll have a look at the dastardly page 208 tomorrow.

[Dragonlady]

deleted

out of date

[lozwich]

[TheLongWayHome]

[lozwich]

Ok, sitting here with said book in front of me..

I don't think the rule about separation or not is particularly British English or otherwise. If the verb doesn't have an object, that means it can't be separated. The example in the book "The engine cut out.." the verb cut out refers to the subject of the sentence, the engine. There is no object, or receiver of the verb.

The bit about the particle being an adverb, is saying that in, out, down, over are adverbs describing the verb part of the phrasal verb, and can be separated. The object in the keying the number in sentence is the number.

Does that clear it up?

The book of past papers I was thinking of is by Cambridge University Press, and imaginatively called "Cambridge First Certificate in English". There's a whole bunch of them, and they have numbers to tell you which edition it is.

[El Gallo]

Thanks again!

[Gary Denness]

I am absolutely, stunningly tired after a 24 hour journey back from the UK (so forgive any crass stupidity), but I'm pretty sure the rule (and I believe it's a universal rule, not something the British are uniquely doing), is that when using a pronoun as the object, the pronoun must be used between the verb and preposition/whatever. If you are using the full word for the object it can go in either position.

Key the number in = fine
Key in the number = fine

Key it in = fine
Key in it = not fine

[MO39]

Gary, you've got it, by George, you've got it. Actually I'm sure you've got the explanation right because it's the one I've used for years!