Job Discussion Forums

[dmb]

If a student can tell the difference between a DO and an IDO does it help them communicate more effectively? I think not.

[latefordinner]

dmb: If a student can tell the difference between a DO and an IDO does it help them communicate more effectively? I think not.

I don't teach them DO/IDO (or much grammar language at all), but I do teach the difference between "I fed him the fish" and "I fed him to the fishes". Don't we all? Marcoregano's post doesn't seem to come from a desire to teach the meta-language, but he does want to be clear himself on how the language works in a specific case before he steps into it. Not a bad idea, especially as English grammar is so strange.

It's often said that you don't have to know the grammar that well to teach the language, you just have to be able to speak it naturally. I demur slightly. You don't have to be a watchmaker to tell the time, but if you are a watchmaker and the only thing you know about watches is how to set the time, people are going to bring you broken watches and the only thing you'll be able to do for them is reset the time on a watch that stays broken. Some things do require fixing, and when you take the back off the watch you should know what you're doing in there.

FWIW, I agree with Stephen Jones' analysis. ICBW, but with the verbs say and tell, I have taught that one says something, (and just may say it to somebody), but that one tells somebody (and just may tell them something). I avoid the meta-language, but make it clear that in use the difference is one of emphasis. I also teach a second meaning of tell, which is to give a command or instruction.
Sorry if this just makes things muddier.

[Stephen Jones]

Dear MarcoOregano,
The confusion here comes from the fact that they talk about tell as a reporting verb. I believe that they are referring to sentences such as "Get out!"[/], which becomes in reported speech [i]He told me to get out

When �tell� is used in the sense of �recount� the person is always the indirect object. You can use tell without a person.
He tells some really wild stories.

The sentences you get such as Tell mecan best be considered as having an implicit direct object.

In Tell me the answer it is clear that the direct object is answer and the indirect object is me. Here's another example that makes it clearer
He told it to everybody within earshot.

However when �tell� is used in the sense of �command� it must have a person. This presumably is the sense in which they consider it a reporting verb.

So, what are we to make of the phrases you refer to:

I told/ordered/reminded/advised/invited Marco to buy another grammar book

I think we can say that the whole concept of direct/indirect objects breaks down here.

If I saw the sentences
Remind him about the party
Invite him to the party
I would not object to considering �him� as a direct object.

However in the sentences
I told/advised him it was dangerous

it is clear that him is the indirect object of �tell� or �advise�.

In �A University Grammar of English� Section 12.31 and 12.32, Quirk and Greenbaum make it clear that the recipient is the indirect object of

[Marcoregano]

Stephen wrote:

"I think we can say that the whole concept of direct/indirect objects breaks down here.

If I saw the sentences
Remind him about the party
Invite him to the party
I would not object to considering �him� as a direct object.

However in the sentences
I told/advised him it was dangerous

it is clear that him is the indirect object of �tell� or �advise�."

I dunno...I can't see a clear distinction in these examples. The rule would seem to be that:

With some reporting verbs, the hearer is sometimes the direct object.

Which isn't very clear. I'm inclined to think it matters about as much as a piss in the wind. I would like to get my head around this thoroughly but I'm not holding my breath.

What is clear, however, is that despite scot47's suggestion that anyone without a command of these supposedly 'basic' grammar principles might as well be driving buses for a living, it would appear that even the authors of globally successful ELT coursebooks don't know what they're talking about, not to mention some of us poor foot soldiers. I think I'll go back to avoiding grammar rules and regs wherever possible. Barman, mine's a cold beer!

[arioch36]

People get themselves in trouble when they try to be intelligent. Tolkien wrote his languages according to rules. English came from common speech, not rules. So graduate schools go to great lengths to try to create rules for something that often has no rule except "this is the way it has been done" or "this is the way it is done"

Personally I would forget the artificial terminology of reporting verbs, etc, unless it helps you. To truly right a rule about using tell or say, it would take a three hundred page book, if that.

In grad school, I found out that the higher up the person was, the more they tried to make arcane , minute distinctions, that only served to muddy the heads of us less common folks.

Teaching in China, I'm into prepostitons, so I look at whether I can make a preposition out of it.

"Tell me the answer" well, I can say "Tell the answer to me" Yes?
But I can not say "Tell me to the answer" So if I wrote a book, this would be my rule that someone could pick apart for DO IndO

But I have rules in my own mind. As I said before, all these rules...they are all just gimmiks. Some are helpful, while to other people they just confuse the issue. I say keep the rules that help you, put aside for now the ones that confuse you.

Good question, thanx for the topic

[Lanza-Armonia]

At the end of the day, who really cares?

Language is for communication and as such, if the other party understands one what the hell is the problem?

LA

[leeroy]

Hell Lanza, I pretty much agree with you in some respects.

But when listening to someone with bad grammar and pronunciation, this causes a strain on the listener's ears. Being able to understand someone is not good enough when dealing with extended discourse - you have to be able to understand them easily.

In isolation, something like "He say me he want go pub for drinking" is understandable. But a conversation with someone whose English is so poor can quickly become tiring.

[Capergirl]

[willy]

I always carry a grammar book and I don�t like no grammar no how.
Let�s face it if you teach in TW, or�. not only do they not care about it; but they will fire you if you try to teach it.

Lots of mr47`s out there big ego but no help; if you�re a real teacher why cant you help your co teachers after all that�s what teaching is all about, right? TEACHING

[khmerhit]

Capergirl explained