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Worldly
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 74
Location: The Cosmos
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 Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:43 am Post subject: Re: They May Have Done You a Favor |
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| China.Pete wrote: |
| ......have stumbled upon a site which, if the comments on this thread are any guide, is primarily interested in inexperienced foreign "teachers" who are willing to work for very little pay at relatively low-ranked universities in China. |
I didn't "stumble" upon ANESL. On the contrary, ANESL advertises heavily on Dave's, and it's difficult to ignore their ads and claims.
Prior to viewing the conclusions of my original post, and subsequent commentary from forum members, where did you learn that ANESL is primarily interested in inexperienced FTs who are willing to work for little pay at low-ranked universities? (i.e., which posts on Dave's provided such information?)
Do a search.....there's no such information on this forum that would lead one to conclude that ANESL caters to inexperienced teachers desiring low-paying jobs! In fact, I was careful to say "it APPEARS ANESL caters to young, gullible, inexperienced teachers." I can't prove it!
For your information, ANESL has job ads for positions at the following universities, and many others, which are not "low-ranked":
Xiamen University
Nanjing University of Aeronautics and Astronautics
Nanjing University of Science and Technology
Zhejiang University
Re: Compensation. A quick look at ANESL's job list shows numerous university positions with monthly salaries exceeding RMB 6,000. Would you consider that "little pay" by China university standards?
| China.Pete wrote: |
| Rather than accept their giving you such short shrift as a kind of favor, you insist upon taking considerable personal umbrage at it. It's the kind of attitude which can cause you no end of misery in China. |
You totally missed the purpose of my post. To reiterate, the purpose of the post was to inform and warn. I realize you, a China veteran, may not appreciate the information, but newcomers may appreciate it! Had I seen such a post on Dave's prior to my recent job search, I would have probably given ANESL a pass, or had few expectations.
The strength of this forum originates from members' willingness to post their personal experiences (good and bad). I regret you have little positive to say about my efforts, and prefer to attack the information and OP, rather than be constructive. Of course, it's your prerogative to attack and denigrate, and predict "misery."
Thanks for the advice! As I write this, I'm preparing to be miserable! |
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evaforsure
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1217
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| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:11 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Prior to viewing the conclusions of my original post, and subsequent commentary from forum members, where did you learn that ANESL is primarily interested in inexperienced FTs who are willing to work for little pay at low-ranked universities? (i.e., which posts on Dave's provided such information?) Do a search.....there's no such information on this forum |
In defense of the poster, he said ....In this thread and never noted any assumption that there were additonal post leading to this idea....
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The irony may be that you, an apparently highly qualified Western job-seeker, have stumbled upon a site which,
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| if the comments on this thread are any guide, |
is primarily interested in inexperienced foreign "teachers" who are willing to work for very little pay at relatively low-ranked universities in China |
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donb2222
Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Posts: 134
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| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:09 am Post subject: |
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Worldy,
Honestly, you seem a little too high strung to consider working in China.
I am guessing that you are a type A+ personality that likes to maintain
a large amount of control over everything. JMHO
Working in China seems to require a more laid back type of personality that can either make the best of a situation or just walk away.
You seem like a very bright, qualified person, but I think you would be very frustrated and unfulfilled working in China. My suggestion would be that you find employment elsewhere. |
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vikuk
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842
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| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:50 am Post subject: |
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| Working in China seems to require a more laid back type of personality that can either make the best of a situation or just walk away. |
And just be another China EFL prole - no wonder the general standards of FT employment are so crap in China  |
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donb2222
Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Posts: 134
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| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:04 am Post subject: |
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| vikuk wrote: |
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| Working in China seems to require a more laid back type of personality that can either make the best of a situation or just walk away. |
And just be another China EFL prole - no wonder the general standards of FT employment are so crap in China |
You are probably alluding to just walking away from a job. That is not what I meant. There are many situations that a person can just walk away from.
Such as being offended by being called "laowai", or in this case the guy should just walk away from trying to deal with Angelina's. |
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vikuk
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842
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| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:25 am Post subject: |
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You are probably alluding to just walking away from a job. That is not what I meant. There are many situations that a person can just walk away from.
Such as being offended by being called "laowai", or in this case the guy should just walk away from trying to deal with Angelina's |
This thread isn't just about the OP and his dealings with this recruiter - it also alludes to the fact that bad service is given by this outfit and that other FT's would do well to stay clear of them.
How else do will FT's rid this market of the crap if they don't try and kill it off by denying it their custom. Part of that process is to warm others  |
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xiao51
Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Posts: 208
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| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:52 am Post subject: .. |
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| vikuk wrote: |
| Quote: |
You are probably alluding to just walking away from a job. That is not what I meant. There are many situations that a person can just walk away from.
Such as being offended by being called "laowai", or in this case the guy should just walk away from trying to deal with Angelina's |
This thread isn't just about the OP and his dealings with this recruiter - it also alludes to the fact that bad service is given by this outfit and that other FT's would do well to stay clear of them.
How else do will FT's rid this market of the crap if they don't try and kill it off by denying it their custom. Part of that process is to warm others |
Thanks to the previous poster for returning this thread to its original focus. Angelina's is inefficient at best, nefarious at worst and should be avoided at all costs. As I said, they are merely a governmental portal with rotating faces and the same names. In all of my dealings with them, usually on behalf of desperate foreign teachers looking for jobs after an unfortunate first-job or second-job here in the PRC, I have never, ever found them efficient, helpful and evenly remotely helpful. Indeed, as the OP wrote, my experiences confirm their very prevalent bait-and-switch tacticts. If a foreign teacher must use a recruiter in China, then Angelina's is one recruiter that should be avoided. |
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evaforsure
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1217
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| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:38 am Post subject: |
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| ANESL advertises heavily on Dave's |
| Quote: |
| Part of that process is to warm others |
Perhaps the thought is that Dave's is a trustworthy org and that the ads on Dave�s are from credible sources such as Ang. ESL cafe. There are many people who use them that are happy with the service although I would agree that they are working towards serving the industry and not the FT, all head hunters us the� bait and witch� tactic.. And it isn�t bait and switch if they actually have a listing.. Which isn�t hard to get, bait and switch really is a retail tactic�.. in the utilization of the selling of hard goods...since most recruiters have list...they simply try to match the work order with an applicant...no I don�t think u need them or even a place like Dave's or Ang ESL Cafe...or ..... but when dealing with a head hunter.. They have no real investment in the applicant...and have a job to do with just getting bodies through the employers door so he can choose the new hire...since they get their green from the company .. they work for thm.. and not the applicant...so if the applicant test them or shows any indication of a problem.. they will often just drop them rather than risk putting them to work in a position which could continue to give the headhunter continued income...if they send the boss the real deal and not someone who will question every move made.. which from reading the post.. is just what was done and to tell the truth.. if anyone had ask me a barrage of questions .. such as was reported.. I would have politely just bowed out as well...maybe the recruiter really did the employer a favor by leaving this one out of the interview pile...
| Quote: |
| In all of my dealings with them, usually on behalf of desperate foreign teachers looking for jobs after an unfortunate first-job or second-job here in the PRC, I have never, ever found them efficient, helpful and evenly remotely helpful |
But the real question, Did these "unfortunate first-job" FTs find employment and did they do it though an agency such as or perhaps Ang ESL Cafe.
It is assumed, by what u say, that these FTs that u aided were "let go" for whatever reason and usually finding replacement employment is difficult...so it would be interesting to find out if this agency could actually place someone who had had the misfortune of being layed-off or fired... |
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vikuk
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842
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| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:51 am Post subject: |
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| Perhaps the thought is that Dave's is a trustworthy org and that the ads on Dave�s are from credible sources such as Ang. ESL cafe. There are many people who use them that are happy with the service although I would agree that they are working towards serving the industry and not the FT, all head hunters us the� bait and witch� tactic.. And it isn�t bait and switch if they actually have a listing.. Which isn�t hard to get, bait and switch really is a retail tactic�.. in the utilization of the selling of hard goods...since most recruiters have list...they simply try to match the work order with an applicant...no I don�t think u need them or even a place like Dave's or Ang ESL Cafe...or ..... but when dealing with a head hunter.. They have no real investment in the applicant...and have a job to do with just getting bodies through the employers door so he can choose the new hire...since they get their green from the company .. they work for thm.. and not the applicant...so if the applicant test them or shows any indication of a problem.. they will often just drop them rather than risk putting them to work in a position which could continue to give the headhunter continued income...if they send the boss the real deal and not someone who will question every move made.. which from reading the post.. is just what was done and to tell the truth.. if anyone had ask me a barrage of questions .. such as was reported.. I would have politely just bowed out as well...maybe the recruiter really did the employer a favor by leaving this one out of the interview pile... |
The FT as a piece of meat - you have been warned  |
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evaforsure
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1217
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| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:56 am Post subject: |
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| The FT as a piece of meat - you have been warned |
what the heck does this mean with the ominous warning...Ang. ESL Cafe employees are like the actors in a scene from "Delicatessen".... |
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vikuk
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842
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| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:38 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| what the heck does this mean with the ominous warning...Ang. ESL Cafe employees are like the actors in a scene from "Delicatessen".... |
it means that if you're looking for the personal touch - getting personal support in a new culture far away from the support of close friends and family - then don't look to the staff of Ang. ESL Cafe - from the reports in this thread it looks all they want is live warm white bodies, who don't demand that much or ask many questions, to fill those FT positions that Ang. ESL Cafe most want to fill - regardless of the preferences of the prospective FT's. Want to get treated like a commodity - a live lump of meat - then try Ang. ESL Cafe. If you don't - then you've been warned  |
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evaforsure
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1217
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| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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| If you don't - then you've been warned |
No alternative?
Look, it is just an agency....a clearing house for jobs... but as with any other business, it is all about numbers and if your one of the numbers that gets n the way of the process, it is easier and more practical to go to the next applicant. It doesnt cater to the class of clients that demand anymore than just the basic service of a teacher, and not a qualified one at that .. so when an applicant starts to indicate what level they think they should be place at...in terms of employment.....it is like "tellin them their job"... like I said.. if I start getting flack from someone cause they have been informed of a condition of hire..or if they question my criteria (even if I made it up to avoid dealing with the real issue, a situation which often comes up in business, I still would resent someone resent and withdraw from trying to find that applicant employment...depends .. do u want a job or not...
now ... you have been informed.. |
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Hansen
Joined: 13 Oct 2008
Posts: 737
Location: central China
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| Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:09 am Post subject: |
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I tried Angelina's a few years back. I got the impression that there was nothing personal about it. I understand why if the explanations here are correct.
When I questioned a low ball salary figure for a job near Beijing, that was the end of it. Nothing more. Even a "Go F*** yourself" would have been nice.
Considering all the graft, skimming, etc. here, I can't imagine how working through a third party can be a good thing, unless it's an agency with a remarkable track record.
If someone could identify a good agency with experience and references, please inform those who seek such a service. I have heard that Buckland is or was a good outfit. Any news? |
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Teatime of Soul
Joined: 12 Apr 2007
Posts: 905
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| Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:56 am Post subject: |
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You say...
| evaforsure wrote: |
Look, it is just an agency....a clearing house for jobs... but as with any other business, it is all about numbers and if your one of the numbers that gets n the way of the process, it is easier and more practical to go to the next applicant. It doesnt cater to the class of clients that demand anymore than just the basic service of a teacher.... |
They say....
| Quote: |
- You also will be offered:
--a friendly and personal service, quick responses, ....helpful suggestions |
Was something lost in translation? |
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roadwalker
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 1750
Location: Ch
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| Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:57 am Post subject: |
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Count me in the 'thanks, Worldly' for posting and for telling Angelina's what they are doing wrong,' group. Will they change? Who knows, but you made it more likely, not less, than it was before. Bait and switch may be a common tactic, but it isn't an accepted business practice any place where consumers have any say. In fact it's illegal in many areas.
Besides, Worldly, you gave a lot of posters a chance to spin their wheels and waste their time telling you that you are spinning your wheels and wasting your time. I think yours was the more productive spinning. Thanks again. |
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