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Teatime of Soul
Joined: 12 Apr 2007
Posts: 905
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 Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:28 am Post subject: |
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babala; I think your approach, trying to leave on good terms, is a sound and emotionally mature one.
I have never seen the wisdom in "stick it to them before they stick it to me" behavior. In fact, game theory proves this is a losing strategy.
Adult behavior and negotiating skills are, in my experience, sounder methods than illegal and pre-emptive lashing out at one's employer. |
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evaforsure
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1217
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| Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:39 am Post subject: |
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| I would , agree 100%, but would add, the idea of having a negotiating position is based on having some advantage....it is not lashing out to take care of yourself... |
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Teatime of Soul
Joined: 12 Apr 2007
Posts: 905
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| Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:48 am Post subject: |
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I think everbody involved, from the teacher, the school, and even China's govt. have a duty to look out after their own interests.
As long as that duty is carried out in a way that respects the other parties too.
I don't believe that negotiation is always based on having an advantage, but upon seeking to better one's position. That doesn't always translate in gaining an "advantage" over another party.
Negotiating an FRP transfer will certainly better an FTs position, but doesn't gain him an advantage over his old school. Indeed, the school will likely be involved in assisting the FT in this endeavor. It is a win-win negotiations result. |
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evaforsure
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1217
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| Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 5:46 am Post subject: |
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When ever anyone in China uses the Win Win card, it means you gonna get f____
No one can be certain of a schools intention, you can only be certain of your own...
I can only report from my experience, that in the last three moves, over the last 5 years, if I hadnt kept the RP and FEC, I would have had to leave the country...how about u, in your first appointment, did u turn in your passport for your employer to change to the L....and if u did, were u able to turn that back nto a z....if the answer to this is yea, and u have followed your own advice and had positive outcomes then this is the right move, for U....and at that time....my fact and my experiences indicate that haggeling with the Chinese, it is best to have more cards then they do...
In the eight years I have been in China, only one school actually wanted the FEC back...and I have worked on RPs from other schools with the PSB knowledge...
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| As long as that duty is carried out in a way that respects the other parties too. |
Remember, respect has diffrent meanings to diffrent people, and what is respect to the Chinese doesnt mean respect to me...it is not a foregone conclution that all schools will help with a transfer, (my first school didnt want to help and used the exit procedure as a way to insure that their FTs didnt teach at other schools)...it was only due to the fact that I didnt surrender my passport to them that I was able find a new school and that school was able to help me find a way to circumvent my having to leave the country...no matter what the school sez is the right way, FTs may find that to follow the advice they offer will leave them at a disadvantage... |
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Teatime of Soul
Joined: 12 Apr 2007
Posts: 905
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| Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 6:06 am Post subject: |
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In my experience, when someone takes a mature, rational and cooperative approach to problem solving, regardless of locale or problem, the outcomes are by and large, more favorable.
A win-win goal is a worthwhile first approach strategy.
You didn't answer my earlier question:
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If you elect to refuse to cooperate with your school and refuse to allow them to cancel the FRP, as is required of them, what do you expect will happen:
1. When it is time to collect your final wages.
2. When your new school tells you it needs the Recommendation Letter from your old school.
3. When your [new] school asks for your release letter |
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Babala
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 1303
Location: Henan
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| Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| I didn't turn my passport over to school. We went together to the visa office and I turned my passport in there. The school did pick it up for me when it was ready a week later and I dropped by and got it. I turned in my FEC as it belongs to the school. I was able to change my L visa into a Z visa without leaving the country. This took place in late 2007 so I'm not sure if the regulations have changed. |
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evaforsure
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1217
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| Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:02 am Post subject: |
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You didn't answer my earlier question:
Quote:
If you elect to refuse to cooperate with your school and refuse to allow them to cancel the FRP, as is required of them, what do you expect will happen:
1. When it is time to collect your final wages.
2. When your new school tells you it needs the Recommendation Letter from your old school.
3. When your [new] school asks for your release letter |
Maybe I have worked at upscale employment, (not that you would know it to look at them) but jobs I take have a check to bank payment method so never had a problem.. my advice is to only work at employers who offer this option as it gives the employee a greater amount of control over manipulating boses...
New Schools will often take care of getting the paperwork you need...
Like I said, the book can always be returned to the old employer if you dont need it.. but as I have stated many times...I have only been able to change cities and employers without a lot of trouble and going out of the country due to the simple fact that I kept the book... working in China takes some forethought, and it should be noted that the FT should take care to set up things so as to use the circumstances to their advantage...but really if this was a big problem, I think that many of the FTs that have kept books would have been impacted by this...many FTS have been here a few years and have most of tehir books and beofre you characterize these FTs as thieves, remember .,....everyone had to start somewhere...
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how about u, in your first appointment, did u turn in your passport for your employer to change to the L....and if u did, were u able to turn that back nto a z |
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Buck Lin
Joined: 13 Oct 2008
Posts: 405
Location: nanchang china
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| Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:29 am Post subject: |
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What I have heard after talking with folks that have been around in China is that, you change provinces and there is no follow up on you. Also in South Korea and Taiwan if you have problems, you leave the country and come back in. Chinese because of lack of experience, don't realize it is illegal to keep someones passport. When people ask for it you say," You can have it, but I go with it." You need your passport in China because the police will ask for it where ever you go. When booking into a hotel they must register you with the police. Don't be a slave to idiots here.
Maybe it is time for all foreigners to report to their embassies everytime their passport goes out, even if it is only for the day. |
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Teatime of Soul
Joined: 12 Apr 2007
Posts: 905
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| Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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eveaforsure: So what do you tell your new employer when they ask for your letter of release and letter of recommendation form your old school?
After having, "borrowed" it for an indeterminate time from your old employer, in spite of their demands for it back.
You old school is likely to respond how to those requests from your new employer?
We are talking FRP, not Red Book here.
Just trying to see how this clever plan plays out.
Seems like a "bullet, meet foot" moment. |
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dialogger
Joined: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 419
Location: China
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| Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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My experience of breaking a year contract after 6m dates from 2004/05 and may be outdated.
I originally settled an agreement that the old school would pay half my airfare benefit but that got dealt to as the situation escalated through the school bureaucracy. So I got nothing.
However as far as the paperwork was concerned I found my best ally was the admin of the new school who smoothed things wonderfully.
My recollection of the 'letter of recommendation' was that it was more a certificate that I had worked at the old school with the obligatory stamp.
I went to the PSB with the new school recruiter and 20 mins all fixed.
Be civilised and even if you have been screwed badly don't make them lose face. |
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kev7161
Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 5880
Location: Suzhou, China
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| Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 12:22 am Post subject: |
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| You need your passport in China because the police will ask for it where ever you go. |
In my almost six years in China, I have never once been asked by a police officer for my passport. I do show my passport as ID in various places (as opposed to showing my driver's license back home). And in the case of a hotel stay or changing money, they actually look at my RP and the passport's expiry date. But otherwise, my passport generally stays tucked away in my desk drawer. I don't carry it around with me everywhere I go and, again, have never once been asked for it as I walk around the city streets. |
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eddy-cool
Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 1008
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| Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 12:56 am Post subject: |
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| wrote: |
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| You need your passport in China because the police will ask for it where ever you go. |
In my almost six years in China, I have never once been asked by a police officer for my passport. I do show my passport as ID in various places (as opposed to showing my driver's license back home). And in the case of a hotel stay or changing money, they actually look at my RP and the passport's expiry date. . |
Personal anecdotes, irrelevant to reality. You may travel around without your passport for years and never encounter anyone wishing to inspect itbut you may run into a curious or inquisitive cop the first day you are on Chinese territory, and if you haven't got it on you you may or may not have to look at a somewhat annoying and time-consuming interview and potential curtailment of your freedom of movement.
Laowais are expected to have ID documents on them no less than locals. Have you ever witnessed how the cops handle migrants? And what with the increase of the number of illegal immigrants in China, the police have wisened up and are learning fast how to cope. There have been - equally anecdotal but verifiable in the media - reports of Africans being stopped and their ID's checked in Beijing and Guangzhou; why would that not be extended to white laowais?
In point of fact this has happened to me albeit in an unprofessional enough manner so that I could wriggle out without showing my passport. I was lucky enough to be identified by a local as 'women de laowai laoshi'...
In HONG KONG, by the way, the police have since colonial days been known to perform spot checks in public spaces on foreigners - tourists, businessmen. And a few hapless ones ended up talking themselves out of the police station whence they had been removed - forcibly.
I think it is easier to imagine that the PSB would resort to such procedures than the cops in HK!
We are lucky enough that the police often accept alternative documents as proof of our identity - FEC, RP (booklet if you have got one), marriage cert. |
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evaforsure
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1217
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| Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 2:40 am Post subject: |
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After having, "borrowed" it for an indeterminate time from your old employer, in spite of their demands for it back.
You old school is likely to respond how to those requests from your new employer? |
Like I said, maybe the level of employment experience has been with schools less vindictive, but no school has actually ask to change my RP to a L visa, it has never been an issue and as far as I can see, it is often used by an employer to inusre that you have a harder time gettng a new job. Many times Chinese employers and schools use these kinds of Admin procedures to prevent employees from competing against them in new employment. As it is just an RP, I have actually worked on them with PSBs knowledge in Dalian, with their full knowledge that the RP was issued in another provence...
This is not a black and white issue...
In 8 years not one schol, I have worked for has wanted to Change the RP, and the only time I had a school refuse to issue a release letter is when I returned the FRP book (this was the first RP and was a book instead of a sticker)...they used the leverage to try and prevent me from working elsewhere...
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| However as far as the paperwork was concerned I found my best ally was the admin of the new school who smoothed things wonderfully. |
dialogger,spot on..... |
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Teatime of Soul
Joined: 12 Apr 2007
Posts: 905
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| Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 3:01 am Post subject: |
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Working with the FAO of the new school seems sound advice.
It keeps the FT legal and makes for a smooth transition. |
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suanlatudousi
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Posts: 384
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| Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 4:47 am Post subject: |
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| Lhenderson wrote: |
| If you see the school stamp on anything you can copy it, cut it, and put it on a letter. I've done it many times. Works like a charm. |
Yes, a scanner can do amazing things with stamps and signatures.
Then again, you have just admitted to a "prisonable" criminal offense. Good luck. |
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