Job Discussion Forums

[007]

[trapezius]

[007]

[johnslat]

Dear 007,
I'm quite surprised to hear that - anyone else in the Kingdom ever meet an English teacher who had NO formal training?
Regards,
John

[freesoul]

Without going deep into philosophical debate, the term 'native speaker' is so extremely problematic that numerous books have been written to address the issue.

To me the bottom line is the illusive term 'native speaker' has more socio-political implications coupled with complex factors such as students' expectation than a linguistic face.

BTW, no final and clear cut definition of the term has been agreed upon so far.

[johnslat]

Dear freesoul,

What would be wrong/problematic with this definition?

A speaker of a particular language who has spoken that language since earliest childhood.

Regards,
John

[007]

[sheikh radlinrol]

[freesoul]

Dear John,

You are saying then that "a speaker ( living in East London) of a particular language who has spoken that language since earliest childhood" is native speaker of English with a cockney accent. True, but what makes his variety of English as THE 'native' English language more � or less- than a Texan with a different not only accent but also dialect. Similarly, if we agree that we have two varieties of English, or two Englishes, so which one is THE agreed-upon native variety and most importantly, who decides which one is.

That said, what makes an Indian who " who has spoken that language ( English) since earliest childhood" but with Indian "a native speaker of English" is that he speaks English, but with his OWN variety. So, Cockney, Texan and Indian Englishes are just examples of how difficult to define who and/or what is 'NATIVE'

Read "World Englishes" and " the phonology of Englih as an international English" Jennifer Jenkins

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_English
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_speaker

Best,
F

[johnslat]

Dear freesoul,
Good heavens - I come from Boston, MA. I have a distinctive accent. So, because of that, maybe I'm not a "native speaker?"
I don't see why the fact that there are many "different varieties" of English enters into the discussion at all. I've taught with teachers from England, Ireland, Wales, Australia. etc.. all of whom had different "accents and dialects." So, were some "native speakers" while others were not?

If you have spoken English since earliest childhood, you are a native speaker of English - and I don't care where you are from, what color your skin might be, what your accent/dialect is like.

Or maybe I'm missing the point here - I mean, it seems pretty darn simple to me, so perhaps I'm being obtuse.

Regards,
John

[Stephen Jones]

The problem with defining Indian English as a native variety of English is that there is no agreement on what it is.

If you read the Times of India or The Hindu it is almost indistinguishable from standard home counties British English, though there are differences in vocabulary ('crores' and 'lakhs') and clear differences in register. Somebody once described Indian English as being a weird combination of the parade ground and the minor public school. This is best seen in the case of the student at the best school in Colombo who introduced his father to his teacher with the words "Meet pater bugger."

The last census put the number of native speakers of English in India at less than 200,000. It also states that there are over 130 million speakers of English as a second language but that covers a multitude of sins. After all something like 70% of the population of the UK studied French at school but the ability to say "soixante-neuf" and "Oh, la, la" does not a native speaker make.

Amongst most of those speakers of a second language there is a coincidence in certain aspects, basically caused by common differences between their differing first languages and English (the inability to get articles right for example). However first language interference increases the lower one goes down the ability range, and is almost inexistent at the top range (and the top of the range consists of the best writers in English today, whether definitely native speakers such as the Desais (Karen's mother Anita was half German) or definitely second language speakers of English such as Pankaj Mishra.

And then we have the contrasting cases of the two finest prose writers in English in Sri Lanka, Carl Muller who can write perfectly standard English and worked for years as a journalist in the Gulf, but who in his various volumes of memoirs gives a perfect impression of the English of his railway employee burgher background, and Yasmine Gooneratne (sister of one Sri Lankan Prime Minister, and aunt of her daugher, the last President) who spent much of her working life as an English Professor in Australia lecturing on Jane Austen, whose English style hers very much resembles.

[NigerianWhisper]

THere is me thinking this is a thread about Dar Arrowad school, of which I have an interest in.

Instead we have a thread, mostly pointless, about what constitutes a "Native Speaker".

Why don,t you create your own thread and then you can pontificate all you wish.

[johnslat]

Dear NigerianWhisper,
Why not start your own thread?
Regards,
John
P.S. By the way, are you a native speaker?

[freesoul]

Dear John,

I think you did miss the point. What I was driving at was that you ARE a native of your OWN variety in the same way the Indian is.

Dear Stephen,

In sociolinguistics, there is no such a thing as "British English", If you disagree with me, could please specify where it is geographically located? There are regional " British" accents and dialects, but not one " British English". And if you referring to Standard English or "Received Standard", it is just a class-dialect spoken by 2 percent of Britons and doesn�t reflect their locality

Best,

F

[007]

Well, it seems there is no universal definition of a �native speaker�! And this is very well reflected on the views of different schools of thought!

BTW, did not the Germans brought 'English' to Britain?