Job Discussion Forums

[Fred Smith]

I work in a college teaching business courses. My students are very lazy. many sleep in class - if they show up - and those that do come do very little.

Now this is their last semester, they graduate and I have just given a final for an 11 week business course.

Cheating was rampant and the 2 Chinese teachers sent from the school to be monitors did absolutely nothing. Students openly cheated in front of them when I left the room. In fact one of the teachers was giving answers to a student when I walked in the room

So my test wasn't really that hard in my opinion. I had it and the tafe program had to validate it and they actually made me make it harder!

So I just finished grading and 31 out of 87 failed! The school told me I HAD to pass them all and I said no.

Anyone who got less than 50 failed. A student who got 49 failed.

In one class 17 out of 27 failed.

I will not change their grades and now have to make a retest for them in 2 weeks. The retest will be similar to the original but I will change some things around.

The school expects me to teach the students yet again and prepare them for this test - when for 10 weeks I taught them and they didn't pay attention and even gave them 6 periods of review!

This school stinks by the way. No support from them and none from tafe. And the students are lazy, so lazy.

[Hansen]

Fred, You must be relatively new. You see how being a man of principle, having integrity, being honest, worked? The school punishes you. You have to prepare another test, you have to teach them. You have to again correct the exams.

Get yourself a hobby which will give you a reason for being in China. Then you will realize that the testing system is a phony as the "high moral values" baloney. It's not a high priority target. If you think you will make a difference, you won't, at least not on this front.

If you do reform the system, please inform us in a post.

This garbage goes on in the top universities in China.

In one sense, we are expecting a lot from the students, when, in one class, one time in their life, they are held to western standards. Considering that their teachers have taught them to cheat, their parents help them cheat, and nearly all the students with whom they compete cheat, why should we expect them to not cheat?

My guess is that if you dig in your heels, you will be asked to simply submit the scores. Another teacher will cook the scores and then pass the students anyway.

When I first started teaching, it was my way or the highway. I refused to give a second exam to those who failed. The school didn't make an issue of it. Recently, the school has asked me to retest them and submit two exams prior to the final. I did it once or twice, no big deal. The second exam was an oral exam of ten questions. It took a few minutes.

This kind of stuff is a waste of time and energy. Save it for battles that make a difference in the quality of your life.

[Totemic]

[Sinko]

Well, Fred, at least you tried and conducted yourself to a professional standard. You tried your best and should be given a pat on the back for your endeavours. I think maybe that your efforts have at least made others aware of your attitude, and I'm sure your work would ultimately be appreciated by your peers. Your efforts justify that YOU HAVE GUTS！

Hansen on the other hand is a defeatist. He doesn't take his job seriously and is probably better off going back home. He seems to think hobbies are more important in his life in China and that everybody's struggles are a waste of time.

Well, guess what, Hansen. I was like this when I first arrived in this country over 5 years ago. I worked hard, got put down, used, reproached, you name it..... I got Y3,500 month for my troubles. I am now earning....heaps!! I don't work many hours and I have earned a lot of respect from my students and peers. I stuck with my professional attitude and got rewarded.

Some people who come here to China are really wimps.....

[lpm782]

You really need to get something to do. The reason to live in China is to enjoy as much Asian Vagina as possible with an ABSOLUTE MINIMUM of work. If you wanted to be worked to death, you could have stayed in most Western countries (France, Greece, Spain, and Italy excluded.)

1. These students could work and do things the ethical way (ex-President Bush could also get re-elected), but to what benefit? There are WAY more students than there are jobs. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124087181303261033.html

MOD EDIT

[themanymoonsofjupiter]

it certainly is frustrating, isn't it? good on you for sticking to what you believe in: true education. i don't see the point in conforming to the idea that cheating is ok. at my first school, i failed kids who then tried to bribe me by bringing fruit to my apartment. not, of course, as a bribe, just as a gift for me. thanks for the fruit, fella! i also had teachers talk to my co-worker (probably knew what i'd say if they talked to me) about passing a certain student with a lot of guanxi in town who had never shown up to my class. i said no, of course. probably the university passed him anyway, as hansen mentioned might happen. this is not ideal, but it's a lot better than giving in!

i guess my story is similar to sinko's in that my second school, which i really liked, supported my views on cheating & specifically said to fail those who are cheating. you may not win this one, you may not win over this school (doesn't sound like you really care to, anyway), but you will eventually find yourself in a good situation where your standards are valued.

[curvilinear]

Hey Fred, the school will change the grades anyway. Don't lose sleep over this.

[Hansen]

Sinko, I'm not sure I understand how being realistic about what you can and can not accomplish equals being a "wimp." My understanding of a wimp is one who is cowardly, more or less. For instance, people who sit behind their computer and say things to people they would not say to them in person are wimps of a sort. Granted, I have done this at times. Perhaps most of us have, but that does not excuse the behavior.

In Fred's case, no offense to Fred, it seems to me that the material he is presenting is too difficult for his students, regardless of what he thinks about it. Failure rates of more than 50% indicate a problem.

One possible solution to this is to lighten the impact of the final exam on the final grade. A teacher who gives plenty of opportunities for the students to accumulate points throughout the term will not be faced with heavily weighted final exams. Having oral English exercises which require active participation by the students can awaken the sleeping ones and break up the monotony of the material usually presented.

I have sat through some meetings during which I understood nothing because of language problems. I also wanted to go to sleep or read material unrelated to the meeting.

Fred can change the format and grading system and the language level of his class to diminish the number of students who sleep and fail. He could develop an educational game which carries the potential for numerous points and offer it to the students. There are lots of ways to alter the class, reach out to the students, and still maintain one's self respect.

To confront a class of students who have, for their entire academic career cheated, and then expect them to not cheat, is asking a bit much, especially in light of the fact that the Chinese teachers undermine the request by helping the students "cheat," or being indifferent to it.

[Robin53]

I admire you for failing those students Fred Smith. It will give them a little shock, but not much of one. After several years teaching in China, I'm afraid I've joined the club and don't fail anyone any more. This means I've had to "dumb down" the courses I teach as I want the bulk of the students to pass. There are always a few at the top who I know are frustrated because of the low standard, and a few at the bottom who should not be studying at a university, and would be quickly weeded out if they were in a western university. I don't know how this situation arose in China, as graduates from the 1980's and 90's tell a different story and say the quality of assessment was better at that time in this country.

China is not the only place where courses got "dumbed down". This happened in NZ and Australia in the 1990's because economic restructuring was going on then in polytechnics and universities, and "bums on seats" was seen to be more important than "dumbing down". I think it also happened in the UK and the US at the same time. The international ranking system for universities in recent years based on the number of academic citations from a particular university and the quality of its degrees has helped to set a bench-mark for what is academic quality in western universities. I don't think any of the universities in China get into the top 200 in the world.(Not sure on this point though). Its refreshing to see a comment from the UK about scrapping their ridiculous 1 year Master degrees. I've had young Chinese bosses with those who were barely literate in English but got hired because of their British MA.

Things will change eventually in Chinese universities and colleges mainly because there are too many graduates looking for jobs with qualifications which have not prepared them at all for the realities of selling oneself to get a job. Employers want recognised training and skills, not a a useless piece of paper. The idea that a job-seeker deserves to be put at the top of the list just because they are a graduate fuels the system at the moment, but I think people are beginning to realise that the system is flawed and that a lot of universities and colleges are just empty shells. If I was a Chinese student, I would study education management and get an MBA. My guess is that a lot of jobs will be coming up soon for qualified people to review and give recommendations for restructuring of universities and colleges in this country.

[Mr. Kalgukshi]

Racist remarks are not wanted or permitted on this board. Posting them will quickly result in a permanent ban.

[eddy-cool]

This is a repeat topic as the feature described by the OP is a real existing problem.

But on the other hand, you have to question the teaching approaches by most instructors, local and foreign.

My students always have a pile of complaints come the end of the first month of a new term; they uniformly describe me as 'too strict'. And yet, at the end of every term I get a nice amount of friendly feedback more flattering than you can ever get by being overly friendly to your charges.

- First thing: Attendance. Enforce a rule and montitor your students. Do you know them well enough to identify them by sight? Nor can I. Hence I make roll-calls, or I ask the monitor to vouchsafe anyone's absence. At the end of every lesson another student always comes to collect my signature; I have noticed that my name signs the presence of every single student every time. IF YOU HAVE A MONITOR (or another student in charge of collecting your signature) WHO WANTS YOU TO SIGN YOUR NAME UNDER A FULL LIST OF STUDENTS, THEN YOU CAN HOLD HIM/HER RESPONSIBLE FOR THOSE WHO ARE ABSENT.

- Homework:
My students make PRESENTATIONS of textbook passages. They are learning to teach their peers. There is a century-old philosophy that holds the successful student is his own best teacher, and consequently, his peers' best teacher. I have been following this insight for some time and can say it works extremely well!
It makes sure, among other things, that students take part in the lesson. I appoint two students to present one page or two at a time, taking up ca. 5 minutes of class time. They have to explain new vocabulary, sometimes the morphology of new words or related words, grammar points, topical points etc. On average I rope in 6 students to do presentations, always two together.
The most obvious effect is that at least those students who are keen on getting a good mark will prepare their part for the upcoming lesson (and it means two together will strive to do well). The rest will have to listen and ask questions if they have problems.

There is still plenty of work for me to do, but when I take over I know where my students stand in the relevant lesson. I also encourage them all to take notes, and occasionally I check their entries.

Unfortunately, laowai teachers are regarded - by both the students and the Chinese teachers - as pushovers, easy to fool. When they discover you actually mean business, and you are serious about it, they show a lot respect.

I am really happy with my students, and vice versa!

[Robin53]

Some good ideas about getting students to take their learning, and you, seriously. I was interested in the attendance method you mentioned. I don't do it, but attendance in some classes is a problem. I also have the other two problems of inadequate preparation and lack of note-taking even though I'm talking about Speaking classes. Since I'm new at my university, I thought about these issues, and then took a proposal about how I was going to assess the classes at the end of semester to my Head of Department.

My idea is to a give a 30% grade for attendance (10), keeping a notebook (10) and evidence of regular use of a dictionary (10). Its easy for me to give accurate grades for each of these criteria. At the end of the semester, there will be a speaking test in the form of an interview at the front of the class between me and each student. A percentage of the grade for each student is given by the whole class for "Interest" and "Confidence", while I do the heavy-duty grading of sentence comprehension, grammar, and vocabulary. The participation of the whole class shuts them up during the interview. My Head of Department thought this was a good way of assessing the Speaking classes, and said it did not go against the university's policy of allowing a certain percentage of internal assessment

Somewhat tongue in cheek, I can't help but remember my own undergraduate days 30 years ago and can think of similarities between how we behaved, and how I find my Chinese university students. We missed classes, talked through lectures, and didn't prepare the next chapter of the textbook. Class attendance was never recorded. However we also had to write one or two major essays per course, and about a quarter of each class would fail because their essays, and final exams were below average.

[patsy]

Today the new manager of the english dept. called and said he wanted to meet with me about exams. He said he just had to say a few words. I met with him outside my apt. and when he asked about exams I began to tell him approx. when I planned to give them and what form they would be, he interrupted me and said, "No, no I don't want to talk about that, I just want to say that the scores last semester from the foreign teacher were way too high. Make sure they go from 60-90, most students should get about 82, no one higher than 90, no one lower than 60. He told me this was a message from the dean. hahaha, no problem. The staff here is very friendly, probably my best job so far.

[suanlatudousi]

Two years ago I was given an exact score breakdown that they demanded apply to the students. In a class of 42, they specifically wanted me to fail 4 students.

[Laurence]

yeah nice one patsy

score!