Job Discussion Forums

[spiral78]

Hear, hear. Justin's post would be a useful sticky - you've really taken the time to detail exactly why these courses are not legit - it's related to both content (and the lack of essential elements) and the claims made.

[nickpellatt]

*nick makes mental note to direct any future mention of i-i and/or online courses to Justin's last post*

[Justin Trullinger]

Final thoughts, for the moment:

Thanks for the encouragement, guys. Sometimes I fear I'm turning into the grouchy old TESOL guy...

And another thought- some of us are pretty critical of many online TEFL cert providers, and for good reason. While I'm certainly not offering to "make nice," I don't want to let the "victims," who spend their money on worthless certs, off the hook entirely, though.

Whoever thought you could get a real professional qualification for a couple of hundred bucks and a few hours of your time???? What do you think your creator gave you common sense for?????

Years ago, when I qualified as a certified nurse's aid, which is mostly butt-wiping and bed changing, the training was more intensive and costly than a lot of online TESOL certs. Think about it, people- if you're trying to get a qualification to do something professional and difficult, such as teaching, and you're only willing to spend $150, mostly you KNOW you are *beep*ing around.

And I'm especially put off by those who have a cut rate cert, and know and conceal it. I get a lot of resumes that say "TESOL qualified" but don't specify WHAT qualification. Or cover letters that say "I've just completed an internationally recognised TEFL certificate consisting of 120 hours and 6 hours of teaching practice." Without specifying which one- and if I ask, they don't want to tell me. How legit is that?

People do get taken in. But if you got nothing for something, it's probably because you were trying to get something for nothing. If you got a worthless qual for your hundred bucks, don't forget that you were most probably trying to get a worthwhile qual for far less than one is worth.

Neither most fly by night cert providers NOR most of their customers are showing much respect for the field of English teaching. Frankly more worrying is the lack of respect that they're showing for students of English.

I wouldn't let somebody with a $135, done at distance, can't fail, no other experience, kind of qualification cut my HAIR. And somehow, people are walking around loose with the idea that we should let such a person teach English, maybe even to children. It is MASSIVELY disrespectful to the many people in the world who want or need to learn English.

If it isn't enough training to cut hair, wipe butts, or install cable TV, how in heaven's name could anybody think it was enough to teach?


Best,
Justin


PS- Meaning no disrespect at all to hair-cutters, cable TV installers, or nurses aids anywhere. Noble professions all, and in most cases with more training than a lot of teaching apps I get these days. I really worry that I'm becoming a grumpy old man.

[spiral78]

Sometimes I'm really very happy to be posting anonymously, because I can blow off a bit in safety.
I had an interview today with a guy with a 10-hour cert (not a typo, actually 10). He somehow thinks this qualifies him for a university level position. Which he says he wants because he expects it to be more 'laid back' than teaching businesspeople.

He's not getting within a mile of any of our students

[sroetem]

So, for an affordable price.......

What agency/company/org. would you suggest to take
a TEFL/TOEFL/etc. course from?

With many years experience training a variety of individuals (age 4-80)
and a year teaching biz eng. in a uni.

[spiral78]

Depends somewhat on what part of the world you'd like to teach in. With your experience, you can probably find something in some regions without certification.

For Europe, the general standard is 120 hours on-site, including teaching practice with actual students and feedback from an experienced teacher trainer. CELTA is the brand name, but there are some generic courses out there that are also ok - (and some that aren't), so you'd want to do some research on any generic course before committing to it.

Regardless of region, if possible, it's desirable to take a course in the country where you want to teach. Training in-country offers you a great chance to get your feet wet in the country/culture while you still have a support system � they usually arrange for your housing during the course, airport pickup, and local orientation. Your practice teaching students will really be representative of those you�ll be working with when you start. You can be sure that your certification will be recognized by local employers, and a training centre can give you invaluable contacts and advice regarding reputable local employers.

[Justin Trullinger]

Also depends a lot on the qualifications you already have.

If you applied to work with me, I guess the question of what kind of circumstances got you all that experience without training (if in fact you don't have training) would come up.


Best,
Justin

[sroetem]

per my last post....I was running out the door as I hit 'submit'.

I am in a eu country with family; this country does not have
an on-site program. I do not plan on teaching here.
So, I have some FREE time.
I've had teaching experience in the u.s. and china.
University, non-profit lectures, elementary schools, etc.
I decided not to drop 25K on a master's ed program.
Experience really is the best teacher. I've got a bit.
I'm assuming my uni experience in biz english (mktg major) instruction
will count for something. Being a whitey doesn't hurt either.

It only seems that having this extra 'tefl' piece of paper
would behoove me. All the adverts almost require it.
I doubt I'll get much from the 40/60/100 hr
course. I would rather spend 200-400 for an online
course rather than 1500 for on site somewhere.....
or more for a CELTA.
Money is tight, so I can't afford the latter at the moment.
I take pride in being intelligent and professional, so ultimately
I don't really feel like the cert is needed. I'll jump through
the hoops though....but don't think I need to go broke doing it.

I'm very aware of the sub standard orgs out that are in it
to make money. Any alternatives?
Am I being naive? or just practical?

I'm basically sending inquiries to a few latin american
countries about vacancies. Unis and other schools.
I understand the semesters start in August. I will
NOT be able to arrive until Sept 5. I can say that I have
TEFL cert. because I would before I arrive. Or not.
I'll let you know how my inquiries go. I'm open to private teaching
in corps or individ....but prefer the uni gig.

I'm also very particular (location) about where I want to be, so I realize
it will be more difficult to secure a position, but I'm optimistic.

Anybody want to shed some light?
Gracious.

[spiral78]

Experience really is the best teacher. I've got a bit.
I'm assuming my uni experience in biz english (mktg major) instruction
will count for something.

I'm not in the part of the world you're targeting, but I can say that the experience you mention alone wouldn't likely be sufficient to get a university position in Europe or North America. Training (beyond an online cert) would really be required to compete with any success at all on the job market for such positions.

The thing is: what kinds of approaches and methods have you used? What kinds of learning activities and goals? In what kinds of situations? What kinds of evaluation have you used? etc., etc.... Some training and evaluation of your teaching practices would normally come before applying for university positions in the areas I'm familiar with.

May be different in L.A. I'll be curious what is posted on that

[sroetem]

I agree that more training and eval from many sources is
necessary. I'm my biggest critic.

Yet, I have not listed all of my experience.
I've been an assist teacher for several terms...high school/primary.
Monitored thousands of volunteers from various age groups
for several programs that I've managed.
Additionally, my minor was in education.
Several spurts in summer camps and alt. teaching environments.
I also hold a qual from a university for training teachers
that teach ESL. Not something I asked for, but fell into.

Still, with these few months in limbo, I can't help but
think that having this 'paper' and training view point will
incite a few more offers from orgs that feel it holds some weight.
I'm leaning towards it really not holding much, as mentioned before.
I don't intend for this to be the only cert. to forward my
ed career.

So, am I wasting my time and money??? when considering
my predicament?

We can cover methods, evals and long term goals in
a separate post. In short, teaching abroad is going to continue
to be a learning experience; professionally and personally.
Continuing my quest in becoming trilingual and teaching
in ESL programs in the U.S. in the future is one of my few goals.
I suppose I'm open to education as a long term career, as I initially intended to do so MANY years ago before becoming sidetracked in
this crazy mktg world.

Thanks again.

[Mexicobound]

[sroetem]

MB

I appreciate your feedback and agree with your insight and opinions
on the matters of teaching and perception institutions have
about quals, etc.

'perhaps a language school will take you but I doubt an accredited Uni would hire you without proper certs.'

I have taught biz english courses for an accredited university for a year.
I am positive that all unis are not alike, though.

'Question, would you want a teacher teaching your child that took classes online without supervision, monitoring and testing or would you want someone who has been certified and tested by recognized and accredited institutions?'

As for testing, evals and supervision, I've had my fair share
of benchmarks, progress and analysis in these matters.
It wouldn't be practical to go into much detail at this point.
I really don't want anyone certified or not teaching my child. I've no
children, by the by. I wouldn't approve of a majority of the teachers
I've come across either. Maybe I'm too particular or too harsh a
judge of character and intelligence.

We do need a different leader of the free, new whirled order....so, when
are you applying?

I will keep you updated on my status and process for
going about....

Much thanks to all for their critique and input.

[Mexicobound]

sroetem,

I think your motivation and intelligence will lead you on the right path; those and your heart.
Please keep me posted on your progress.
Take care,
JJ

[Glenlivet]

[spiral78]

It's not directly relevant, but the Canadian government requires a cert for teachers at all levels, from private schools to unis and public schools. It's really considered basic...in many (most?) places.